Why Social Media Purists Won’t Last
Why Social Media Purists Won’t Last
by

I’ve always considered myself a bit of a purist when it comes to social media. I believe strongly that it’s more important to engage in conversations and build relationships with people, both as an individual and as a company or brand, than it is to come at them selling product. If you build relationships, the products will sell. Sure, it’s a longer build, but with it comes longer benefit.

Photo by Vladimir Agapov on Shutterstock.comBut I am also a social media consultant who counsels businesses on how to use social media successfully. Each time I discuss the business goals or reasons why a client wants to use social media, the answers come down to one thing: selling more stuff. It’s a harsh business reality. If you don’t make money, the business goes under. If you don’t make more money, people lose their jobs.

Blogs and social networks emerged because people (i.e. – individuals) wanted to connect on a more personal level using technology … or perhaps because the technology barrier was lowered enough to allow people to connect on a more personal level using it. These interwebs were not invented for business purposes. (They were invented to help Al Gore fix the ozone or something … I forget.)

As a result, the social media purists have laid down the law and, so, to participate in social media as a business, you must do things like, “participate in the conversation,” “engage your customers,” and “talk with us not to us.”

I’ve got news for you. In the world of business, all that talk will get you exactly nowhere. Conversations do not ring the cash register. Engagement does not sell more product. Talking with people just means you have to take time to listen which prevents you from spending valuable time selling more product.

(I’ll pause a moment so my social media friends can curse a bit.)

No, I’m not turning my back on the social media community or mindset. But I am trying to make a point all the social media evangelists out there need to grow up and face: If you don’t stop selling the fluff and start driving the bottom line, you’re going to have to go back to whatever you were doing in 2005. It’s not about convincing the curmudgeon. It’s not about waiting it out until digital natives are calling the shots. It’s about making social media drive business for your clients or companies. If you don’t, you’ll soon hear, “You’re fired,” and it won’t be from Apprentice reruns.

I’m all for your principles. I’m a big fan of The Cluetrain‘s “markets are conversations,” notion. But I can promise you a conversation never paid the damn electric bill.

Make your company blog drive search results to the keywords you want to win. Present calls to action that lead your Facebook fans to buy your product. Entice Twitter followers to subscribe to your e-mail newsletter where you can present similar calls to action for purchase. And if you think doing that turns consumers off, look at the millions of dollars Marriott racks up from Bill Marriott’s blog. Look at the sales Southwest Airlines attributes to it’s social media activity. Look at the $3 million Dell reported earning from its @delloutlet Twitter account. Look at Wiggly Wigglers, which has 90,000 worldwide customers, largely because when they talk about a product on their blog they put an “order here” link along with it.

They don’t do this because they hug and kiss everyone. They do this because they make a compelling argument and persuade you to buy things, then they give you the opportunity to buy them. It doesn’t mean they aren’t social. Just that they’re smart.

Share your content, engage your audiences, talk your talkity talk all you want. But walk the walk, too. Move the needle. And not the UV meter on your virtual stereo, grasshopper. Move the one that makes the cha-ching sound.

Then, and only then, will you last.

My vest is on. Fire away. The comments are yours.

IMAGE: By Vladimir Agapov on Shutterstock.com


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About the Author

Jason Falls
Jason Falls is the founder of Social Media Explorer and one of the most notable and outspoken voices in the social media marketing industry. He is a noted marketing keynote speaker, author of two books and unapologetic bourbon aficionado. He can also be found at JasonFalls.com.
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  • Gracie L Morris

    I completely and whole heartedly agree with you! I am a big fan of social media on a personal level and I’d like to continue to use and see how businesses can use it to their advantage. I’m guilty of “using a friend’s business” as a test subject, but it’s developed my belief that if they’re not on board or optimized for SEO (which I think will help the bottom line); then there really is no point to managing social media. It’s great to “connect” on a personal level, but as you said: “it won’t help the bottom line”. Developing the company blog, using the right keywords, and using the right CTAs is proving to be impossible when trying to “help a friend out”. Which also leads me to another belief: if the customer is happy w/ what you’re doing, leave well enough alone. Now I completely understand that belief is debatable because I would certainly debate myself, but for my friend, simply connecting is enough. Maybe one day I’ll convince them to get relevant content and simply correct title and meta tags so code is clean, so it’s all congruent but for now I’m working on different wavelengths with them! For them it simply boils down to not understanding the importance of their website and blog. Before I go off on another tangent, I’d love feedback if I wasn’t too general….:)

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  • you are absolutely correct. I think many of the so-called social
    media gurus, experts, jedis and evangelists will ultimately fail. They
    are not marketers. They are bandwagon jumpers trying to take advantage of new and relatively unknown
    mediums. Nevertheless we have seen social media can easily provide extra exposure.

  • it can go both ways. I started to see more and more business advertise their Facebook page instead of their domain name. It was not only big brands that were doing this, but smaller brands too. I still believe Social media should be just a part of overall marketing effort.

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  • I wonder how long it will be before the big social websites start charging

  • social media is way over-hyped

  • with social media it all depends on what you are offering. Some products and services simply do not convert, ppl on FB etc are not there to buy or search for products. Its simply impulsive decision at best.

  • it can go both ways. I started to see more and more business advertise their Facebook page instead of their domain name. It was not only big brands that were doing this, but smaller brands too. I still believe Social media should be just a part of overall marketing effort.

  • My experience with social media indicates that it simply does not work to generate sales. Direct Search engine marketing and optimization is much more efficient.

  • Social media has expanded the natural community to a more convenient space to further the most powerful type of marketing – word of mouth.

  • Very well said on the true concept of social media. Most people attribute it as a stepping stone to instant huge traffic. You’re right, it is not a magic pill for traffic building, but rather a good platform for interaction, networking, as well as marketing. It must be used intellectually to get incremental benefits.

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  • great post man,thx..

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  • Amen to that, Carrie. Thanks for the ideas. I think the uses for each
    network vary by company, product, brand, personnel, etc., but I can
    certainly see how your ideas can work for a lot of folks. Appreciate
    the perspective.

  • carriegrafham

    Great post – I've often compared SM to traditional brand building exercises such as advertising, sponsorship etc. which are designed to raise awareness, build relationships and loyalty. All good marketing strategies however, involve two strands of communication – the call to action often integrated into the above (usually via a phone number), but more often in other environments (a promotion instore/newspaper ad informing of short term deals etc. but using a similar creative device) in order to create an integrated holistic campaign. It seems to me that the various strands of SM can be used in a similar ways – blogs & Facebook to build the relationship and communicate the brand values, Twitter & bookmarking sites to deal with the tactical, cash generating message. No-one was ever able to prove an exact ROI on advertising (the most expensive form of marketing) – it is measured via increased awareness/perception of desired attributes. If the sales go up, and nothing else has been initiated as part of the campaign then yes, you can put an ROI on it – but it's very rare for a company to advertise and not underpin that investment with other activity. So, ROI is put against the whole campaign, with both quantitative and qualitative research often used to assess the most successful bits. SM needs to be viewed as another part of the marketing mix, and evaluated as such.

  • carriegrafham

    Great post – I've often compared SM to traditional brand building exercises such as advertising, sponsorship etc. which are designed to raise awareness, build relationships and loyalty. All good marketing strategies however, involve two strands of communication – the call to action often integrated into the above (usually via a phone number), but more often in other environments (a promotion instore/newspaper ad informing of short term deals etc. but using a similar creative device) in order to create an integrated holistic campaign. It seems to me that the various strands of SM can be used in a similar ways – blogs & Facebook to build the relationship and communicate the brand values, Twitter & bookmarking sites to deal with the tactical, cash generating message. No-one was ever able to prove an exact ROI on advertising (the most expensive form of marketing) – it is measured via increased awareness/perception of desired attributes. If the sales go up, and nothing else has been initiated as part of the campaign then yes, you can put an ROI on it – but it's very rare for a company to advertise and not underpin that investment with other activity. So, ROI is put against the whole campaign, with both quantitative and qualitative research often used to assess the most successful bits. SM needs to be viewed as another part of the marketing mix, and evaluated as such.

    • Amen to that, Carrie. Thanks for the ideas. I think the uses for each
      network vary by company, product, brand, personnel, etc., but I can
      certainly see how your ideas can work for a lot of folks. Appreciate
      the perspective.

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  • Great post. Rings true for me at many levels.

    • Thanks Clark. Appreciate the comment!

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  • jkennedy93

    The proactive way that retailers used Twitter on Black Friday is proof that sometimes all the relationship a customer wants is “How does this work”, “Is this on sale?” or “Where can I find a parking space”. Customers don't need to love you. Just make it easy to shop your store. Thanks for the insights.

  • Understandable, and I am glad you wrote the message that sure, like any marketing tactic there are going to be reasons why social media tactics don't work. Yet, social media can ultimately drive home a loyalty to a brand, product and service that can't be done by just hard selling. Social media has expanded the natural community to a more convenient space to further the most powerful type of marketing – word of mouth. I think when our lives begin to slow down, we get to know our neighbors and only buy local then I can see that social media as a communication tool for any sort of information couldn't drive traffic, interest, loyalty and income. My two or three cents

    • Thanks Lyndi. Appreciate the comment.

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  • Jason
    You make a very valid point about how in order to maintain a business relationship it is about the (duh) “relationship” itself, the balanace between being human with each other and being in business with each other. I am new to exploring the social networking integration into developing business relationships, but my sense is that it can be the way to maintain and grow the relationship but only as an adjunct, never in place of the face to face or voice to voice connection, which is the true connection. I look forward to exploring more of your ideas and perspectives. Thanks

    • Thank you, Jay. Appreciate the feedback.

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  • My take: if you're using social media for business and you're not selling, all you have is a hobby. Balance promotion with relation and you have a winner.

    • Fair enough. Thanks for the point, Rob.

  • jenn_lee_ca

    I agree building a relationship is as much as listening as it is talking to your audience. You first have to understand what they need before you begin engaging them. Which is why I find it funny that many companies are not willing to spend the time researching and understanding their customers. Its like they would rather fire first before aim and ready (shot gun approach).

  • Excellent article! For all the hype regarding the online community relationship, the bottom line is, and always has been, the same. Your target market does not want to be your friend, they want something from you. They want a product or a service, not a life affirming relationship. I do agree that there needs to be conversation, however the conversation needs to have a point on the order of “Here is what I can do for you based on what you are saying”.

  • There's nothing wrong with getting to transactions, but with social media I think the relationship has to be there, or the people formerly known as the audience will turn off. The progression is something like “conversation –> relationship –> transaction”. For people who aren't in social media for the business (perfectly valid) the last step is optional, but for those in business the last step is mandatory BUT can't be put first …

  • Thanks for sharing this insight Jason, I think now though companies are aware of the fact that they need to get into right conversations to engage with people, but they still want to make sales on the time spent on the talk.
    The mentality behind this is an old one, it relates to up-selling things on inbound services for example when people call credit card companies to activate their cards they up-sell protection insurances.
    All in all they think they should get a fantastic ROI on every minute spent with there customers.

    • Thanks Akash. I agree with you. The magic is balancing the customer
      want to not always be marketed to and connect with the brands they're
      interested in while still having conversion points you're hitting
      along the way. It's a delicate balance but can be done. Thanks for the
      comment.

  • Jason loves to stir the pot! I can tell you that as a business-person (as opposed to a consultant or agency guy) that everything you said is true. It is, absolutely and without question, how I can either make more revenue or more profit (preferably both).
    But I also think that companies who are focused on revenue and profit (e.g., ringing the cash register) BEFORE they have “joined the conversation” and “engaged their customers” are doomed to fail. In my business, I can be perfectly honest about something: I spend a lot of time on community-oriented activities without having a clear understanding of how it's going to make the cash register ring. I do it because I have faith that, by adding value to communities in good faith, it will position me effectively with the buying public. They're not even going to think about who to buy from; they're going to buy from me because they know me.

    Should companies have infinite patience with community-for-community's-sake? No. But they need to have some – maybe a lot. It's my hypothesis that the companies who invest now in sowing strong relationships are going to do very well when it comes time to harvest them … even if they don't know today exactly when that harvest will come or what it will look like.

  • Jason loves to stir the pot! I can tell you that as a business-person (as opposed to a consultant or agency guy) that everything you said is true. It is, absolutely and without question, how I can either make more revenue or more profit (preferably both).
    But I also think that companies who are focused on revenue and profit (e.g., ringing the cash register) BEFORE they have “joined the conversation” and “engaged their customers” are doomed to fail. In my business, I can be perfectly honest about something: I spend a lot of time on community-oriented activities without having a clear understanding of how it's going to make the cash register ring. I do it because I have faith that, by adding value to communities in good faith, it will position me effectively with the buying public. They're not even going to think about who to buy from; they're going to buy from me because they know me.

    Should companies have infinite patience with community-for-community's-sake? No. But they need to have some – maybe a lot. It's my hypothesis that the companies who invest now in sowing strong relationships are going to do very well when it comes time to harvest them … even if they don't know today exactly when that harvest will come or what it will look like.

    • Excellent thoughts, sir. I think your points are a perfect statement
      of the brands stuck in the middle of participating and figuring it
      out. They are laying the foundation, and rightfully so, even if they
      don't know how many stories the building will be. Thanks for bringing
      it home for everyone.

  • Jason loves to stir the pot! I can tell you that as a business-person (as opposed to a consultant or agency guy) that everything you said is true. It is, absolutely and without question, how I can either make more revenue or more profit (preferably both).
    But I also think that companies who are focused on revenue and profit (e.g., ringing the cash register) BEFORE they have “joined the conversation” and “engaged their customers” are doomed to fail. In my business, I can be perfectly honest about something: I spend a lot of time on community-oriented activities without having a clear understanding of how it's going to make the cash register ring. I do it because I have faith that, by adding value to communities in good faith, it will position me effectively with the buying public. They're not even going to think about who to buy from; they're going to buy from me because they know me.

    Should companies have infinite patience with community-for-community's-sake? No. But they need to have some – maybe a lot. It's my hypothesis that the companies who invest now in sowing strong relationships are going to do very well when it comes time to harvest them … even if they don't know today exactly when that harvest will come or what it will look like.

  • GASP! I did not curse you out at the pause, I was too focused on what was coming next. The question keeps coming up of how to measure ROI in social media and you just answered it for sure. Sure we can say that it is a conversation and that we have to build relationships but I find it hard to build relationship with the a company as I have no idea to whom I am conversing with.

    If companies do not tell me of new offerings how will I know that they have a new product? If I am on twitter or reading blogs and if a new product is not discussed then how will I know about it? We talk about going to where your customer hangs out and if I am chillin on twitter or FB then you have to alert me to something new or a sale or something as that is where I am.

    I 100% agree with you and have had clients do this all along. I violated the “rules” I guess but I have not been fired for doing so.

    Great thought provoking post. I love it!!!!

  • GASP! I did not curse you out at the pause, I was too focused on what was coming next. The question keeps coming up of how to measure ROI in social media and you just answered it for sure. Sure we can say that it is a conversation and that we have to build relationships but I find it hard to build relationship with the a company as I have no idea to whom I am conversing with.

    If companies do not tell me of new offerings how will I know that they have a new product? If I am on twitter or reading blogs and if a new product is not discussed then how will I know about it? We talk about going to where your customer hangs out and if I am chillin on twitter or FB then you have to alert me to something new or a sale or something as that is where I am.

    I 100% agree with you and have had clients do this all along. I violated the “rules” I guess but I have not been fired for doing so.

    Great thought provoking post. I love it!!!!

    • Thanks Suzanne. Appreciate the thoughts here.

  • GASP! I did not curse you out at the pause, I was too focused on what was coming next. The question keeps coming up of how to measure ROI in social media and you just answered it for sure. Sure we can say that it is a conversation and that we have to build relationships but I find it hard to build relationship with the a company as I have no idea to whom I am conversing with.

    If companies do not tell me of new offerings how will I know that they have a new product? If I am on twitter or reading blogs and if a new product is not discussed then how will I know about it? We talk about going to where your customer hangs out and if I am chillin on twitter or FB then you have to alert me to something new or a sale or something as that is where I am.

    I 100% agree with you and have had clients do this all along. I violated the “rules” I guess but I have not been fired for doing so.

    Great thought provoking post. I love it!!!!

  • Thanks B. Appreciate the comment and thoughts.

  • Thanks B. Appreciate the comment and thoughts.

  • Nicely said, Jason. I talk to clients a lot and all they care about is trying to make the sale. I believe that there needs to be a mindset change about how people view the internet, but this bit of wisdom will never change.

    Brian Schuster
    cleverwebtech.com

  • Nicely said, Jason. I talk to clients a lot and all they care about is trying to make the sale. I believe that there needs to be a mindset change about how people view the internet, but this bit of wisdom will never change.

    Brian Schuster
    cleverwebtech.com

  • Nicely said, Jason. I talk to clients a lot and all they care about is trying to make the sale. I believe that there needs to be a mindset change about how people view the internet, but this bit of wisdom will never change.

    Brian Schuster
    cleverwebtech.com

    • Thanks B. Appreciate the comment and thoughts.

  • Shelly, you and Jason are right on. This is one of the truisms that has become abundantly clear to me since entering the agency world. Conversation alone is just that. Must be integrated with some call to action. And call to action needs conversation too. Without it, call to action is one-way marketing and closing in on what some call spam.

    Jason, I will argue one point with you. Conversations do indeed ring the cash register and engagement does sell product. The problem is its damn-near impossible to measure the correlation.

    I flew Southwest Airlines initially because the fares were chaep. But I have formed an affinity to Southwest, champion them at any chance I get and try to never fly any other airline (except when I have to for work) because of the people and the experience, both online and offline.
    For those reasons, I will fly Southwest over another airline even if it's a bit more expensive. But how is Southwest supposed to know that (unless they read this comment and one like it for all similar cases) or track when I made that conscious decision.

    Finding that ROI isn't worth the effort, isn't exact and doesn't translate to the “what have you done for me lately” business world we live in. But that doesn't mean that ROI doesn't exist. Great post. A topic all PR pros need to consider. Welcome your thoughts.

  • Shelly, you and Jason are right on. This is one of the truisms that has become abundantly clear to me since entering the agency world. Conversation alone is just that. Must be integrated with some call to action. And call to action needs conversation too. Without it, call to action is one-way marketing and closing in on what some call spam.

    Jason, I will argue one point with you. Conversations do indeed ring the cash register and engagement does sell product. The problem is its damn-near impossible to measure the correlation.

    I flew Southwest Airlines initially because the fares were chaep. But I have formed an affinity to Southwest, champion them at any chance I get and try to never fly any other airline (except when I have to for work) because of the people and the experience, both online and offline.
    For those reasons, I will fly Southwest over another airline even if it's a bit more expensive. But how is Southwest supposed to know that (unless they read this comment and one like it for all similar cases) or track when I made that conscious decision.

    Finding that ROI isn't worth the effort, isn't exact and doesn't translate to the “what have you done for me lately” business world we live in. But that doesn't mean that ROI doesn't exist. Great post. A topic all PR pros need to consider. Welcome your thoughts.

  • Thanks so much, Catherine. Honored you would pay us a visit.

  • Thanks so much, Catherine. Honored you would pay us a visit.

  • BRAVO

    I am from the old media school. A Press Secretary for Australia's Former Finance Minister, and now love social.

    Notwithstanding, there's as much spin coming off social as there's ever been from any media.

    Yours is a compelling argument for social to grow up.

  • BRAVO

    I am from the old media school. A Press Secretary for Australia's Former Finance Minister, and now love social.

    Notwithstanding, there's as much spin coming off social as there's ever been from any media.

    Yours is a compelling argument for social to grow up.

  • BRAVO

    I am from the old media school. A Press Secretary for Australia's Former Finance Minister, and now love social.

    Notwithstanding, there's as much spin coming off social as there's ever been from any media.

    Yours is a compelling argument for social to grow up.

    • Thanks so much, Catherine. Honored you would pay us a visit.

  • Excellent input, James. Interesting to widen the lens a bit and see
    the internal sales function, customer retention and what-not come to
    light. Certainly those areas shouldn't be ignored. Again, the post was
    aimed more at the social media enthusiasts or consultants to remind
    them that actual business goals need to be the payoff of what they're
    doing and I used sales as a broad goal, but you're absolutely right –
    there's a lot more to do with it than just the cha-ching. Thanks, man.

  • Excellent input, James. Interesting to widen the lens a bit and see
    the internal sales function, customer retention and what-not come to
    light. Certainly those areas shouldn't be ignored. Again, the post was
    aimed more at the social media enthusiasts or consultants to remind
    them that actual business goals need to be the payoff of what they're
    doing and I used sales as a broad goal, but you're absolutely right –
    there's a lot more to do with it than just the cha-ching. Thanks, man.

  • Perhaps it is a result of my Sales background but I DO see the ROI that being active in Social Media can produce. I have experienced it first hand and I have also witnessed others do the same. Without question an active participant in SM (i.e discussions, blogs, reviews, comments, etc…) increases their visibility, attributes 'expertise' to their brand, has more control over outside perceptions of their company, expands their overall reach, builds on their prospects, increases the capicity of their sales pipeline, and has many other benefits.

    The question that you pose is a long standing one in the world of business (Will it make the cash register ring?) but it is NOT the issue!!!! The issue should be pointed back at the business leader in the form of.. How are YOU going to 'sell' your product, service, or capability to these folks that are involved with you now?

    I have worked with far more POOR business leaders with no business or sales accumen than I have successful ones. In most cases the POOR ones blame everything else but themselves. Social Media opens doors to 'sell' more. it does not make people bring you a bag of money because you are there!!!

  • Perhaps it is a result of my Sales background but I DO see the ROI that being active in Social Media can produce. I have experienced it first hand and I have also witnessed others do the same. Without question an active participant in SM (i.e discussions, blogs, reviews, comments, etc…) increases their visibility, attributes 'expertise' to their brand, has more control over outside perceptions of their company, expands their overall reach, builds on their prospects, increases the capicity of their sales pipeline, and has many other benefits.

    The question that you pose is a long standing one in the world of business (Will it make the cash register ring?) but it is NOT the issue!!!! The issue should be pointed back at the business leader in the form of.. How are YOU going to 'sell' your product, service, or capability to these folks that are involved with you now?

    I have worked with far more POOR business leaders with no business or sales accumen than I have successful ones. In most cases the POOR ones blame everything else but themselves. Social Media opens doors to 'sell' more. it does not make people bring you a bag of money because you are there!!!

  • Perhaps it is a result of my Sales background but I DO see the ROI that being active in Social Media can produce. I have experienced it first hand and I have also witnessed others do the same. Without question an active participant in SM (i.e discussions, blogs, reviews, comments, etc…) increases their visibility, attributes 'expertise' to their brand, has more control over outside perceptions of their company, expands their overall reach, builds on their prospects, increases the capicity of their sales pipeline, and has many other benefits.

    The question that you pose is a long standing one in the world of business (Will it make the cash register ring?) but it is NOT the issue!!!! The issue should be pointed back at the business leader in the form of.. How are YOU going to 'sell' your product, service, or capability to these folks that are involved with you now?

    I have worked with far more POOR business leaders with no business or sales accumen than I have successful ones. In most cases the POOR ones blame everything else but themselves. Social Media opens doors to 'sell' more. it does not make people bring you a bag of money because you are there!!!

    • Excellent input, James. Interesting to widen the lens a bit and see
      the internal sales function, customer retention and what-not come to
      light. Certainly those areas shouldn't be ignored. Again, the post was
      aimed more at the social media enthusiasts or consultants to remind
      them that actual business goals need to be the payoff of what they're
      doing and I used sales as a broad goal, but you're absolutely right –
      there's a lot more to do with it than just the cha-ching. Thanks, man.

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  • Jason: thanks for taking the time to reply. I, too, agree that there is a legal and moral obligation for us in these industries. There is quite a movement brewing to establish guidelines in our industry in the interest of public safety.
    Despite public opinion (in some cases the scrutiny is deserved), most of these companies work tirelessly to serve the public. We all benefit whether the innovation clears allergy congestion or gives a cancer patient another chance at life (I am the benefactor of the latter).
    I've been fortunate to be in the pharmaceutical industry for almost 10 years and to touch many patients lives. Social Media can afford us that opportunity exponentially. The great thing is that it is the industry pushing for this guidance/regulation so we can fulfill our obligations and responsibly interact with the public.
    Happy Thanksgiving to all!
    Dana

  • Jason: thanks for taking the time to reply. I, too, agree that there is a legal and moral obligation for us in these industries. There is quite a movement brewing to establish guidelines in our industry in the interest of public safety.
    Despite public opinion (in some cases the scrutiny is deserved), most of these companies work tirelessly to serve the public. We all benefit whether the innovation clears allergy congestion or gives a cancer patient another chance at life (I am the benefactor of the latter).
    I've been fortunate to be in the pharmaceutical industry for almost 10 years and to touch many patients lives. Social Media can afford us that opportunity exponentially. The great thing is that it is the industry pushing for this guidance/regulation so we can fulfill our obligations and responsibly interact with the public.
    Happy Thanksgiving to all!
    Dana

  • Thank you Puja. It's great to see someone both disturbed by what I
    said, but who understands the point of what I said. Glad you
    commented. Made the post worth the effort!

  • Thank you Puja. It's great to see someone both disturbed by what I
    said, but who understands the point of what I said. Glad you
    commented. Made the post worth the effort!

  • Jason, I cursed a bit alright where you inserted the pause :) But cursing aside, this is one of those truths that has to be faced – sooner than later! While some of my clients are willing to experiment with social media and the engagement value it offers, most ask point-blank about ROI. I think its valid for them and necessary for us to have answers. So thanks for the kick on the butt ha ha and I look forward to your insight wrt this on your blog.

  • Jason, I cursed a bit alright where you inserted the pause :) But cursing aside, this is one of those truths that has to be faced – sooner than later! While some of my clients are willing to experiment with social media and the engagement value it offers, most ask point-blank about ROI. I think its valid for them and necessary for us to have answers. So thanks for the kick on the butt ha ha and I look forward to your insight wrt this on your blog.

  • Jason, I cursed a bit alright where you inserted the pause :) But cursing aside, this is one of those truths that has to be faced – sooner than later! While some of my clients are willing to experiment with social media and the engagement value it offers, most ask point-blank about ROI. I think its valid for them and necessary for us to have answers. So thanks for the kick on the butt ha ha and I look forward to your insight wrt this on your blog.

    • Thank you Puja. It's great to see someone both disturbed by what I
      said, but who understands the point of what I said. Glad you
      commented. Made the post worth the effort!

  • Pingback: Define Social Strategy Toward Business Goals. Yeah. « Kadet Communications()

  • Thanks, Dana. The simple fact of the matter is that the law and
    regulations won't catch up to the market for a good 5-10 years.
    Pharma, financial services, health care and more will take a long time
    to catch up to understand and embrace social media as a communications
    channel. Until then, the challenges won't go way. Pharma companies
    have to, above all, act ethically and morally within both the law and
    consumer's expectations. I think the consumer understands there's a
    level of regulation you have to work in, so be honest. Say you can't
    answer certain questions or say certain things about products or uses
    because of regulations. The audience will understand that. Give them
    more credit than you're used to and reap the benefits as a result.

  • Thanks, Dana. The simple fact of the matter is that the law and
    regulations won't catch up to the market for a good 5-10 years.
    Pharma, financial services, health care and more will take a long time
    to catch up to understand and embrace social media as a communications
    channel. Until then, the challenges won't go way. Pharma companies
    have to, above all, act ethically and morally within both the law and
    consumer's expectations. I think the consumer understands there's a
    level of regulation you have to work in, so be honest. Say you can't
    answer certain questions or say certain things about products or uses
    because of regulations. The audience will understand that. Give them
    more credit than you're used to and reap the benefits as a result.

  • Pingback: Southern Social Media 11/23/09 | Southern Social Media()

  • Jason-
    I'm interested to see what your thoughts are on social media involvement in the Pharmaceutical/Medical industries. Check out http://www.fdasm.com and #fdasm on Twitter.
    The FDA heavily regulates how our industry communicates with the public. Because more people are online, the FDA held 2 days of public testimony on the use of Social Media in the pharmaceutical industry and how to regulate it.
    We won't be able to engage a customer the same way an auto manufacturer will because the FDA has policies regarding fair balance of our safety information (thus an 84% reduction of Google paid searches by Pharmaceutical companies since April).
    If Social Media is evolving the way you describe in your blog (and I agree it has though I don't necessarily like it), what are your thoughts about how this specific industry can engage?
    Thanks for a good thought-provoking discussion.
    Dana

  • Jason-
    I'm interested to see what your thoughts are on social media involvement in the Pharmaceutical/Medical industries. Check out http://www.fdasm.com and #fdasm on Twitter.
    The FDA heavily regulates how our industry communicates with the public. Because more people are online, the FDA held 2 days of public testimony on the use of Social Media in the pharmaceutical industry and how to regulate it.
    We won't be able to engage a customer the same way an auto manufacturer will because the FDA has policies regarding fair balance of our safety information (thus an 84% reduction of Google paid searches by Pharmaceutical companies since April).
    If Social Media is evolving the way you describe in your blog (and I agree it has though I don't necessarily like it), what are your thoughts about how this specific industry can engage?
    Thanks for a good thought-provoking discussion.
    Dana

  • Jason-
    I'm interested to see what your thoughts are on social media involvement in the Pharmaceutical/Medical industries. Check out http://www.fdasm.com and #fdasm on Twitter.
    The FDA heavily regulates how our industry communicates with the public. Because more people are online, the FDA held 2 days of public testimony on the use of Social Media in the pharmaceutical industry and how to regulate it.
    We won't be able to engage a customer the same way an auto manufacturer will because the FDA has policies regarding fair balance of our safety information (thus an 84% reduction of Google paid searches by Pharmaceutical companies since April).
    If Social Media is evolving the way you describe in your blog (and I agree it has though I don't necessarily like it), what are your thoughts about how this specific industry can engage?
    Thanks for a good thought-provoking discussion.
    Dana

    • Thanks, Dana. The simple fact of the matter is that the law and
      regulations won't catch up to the market for a good 5-10 years.
      Pharma, financial services, health care and more will take a long time
      to catch up to understand and embrace social media as a communications
      channel. Until then, the challenges won't go way. Pharma companies
      have to, above all, act ethically and morally within both the law and
      consumer's expectations. I think the consumer understands there's a
      level of regulation you have to work in, so be honest. Say you can't
      answer certain questions or say certain things about products or uses
      because of regulations. The audience will understand that. Give them
      more credit than you're used to and reap the benefits as a result.

      • Jason: thanks for taking the time to reply. I, too, agree that there is a legal and moral obligation for us in these industries. There is quite a movement brewing to establish guidelines in our industry in the interest of public safety.
        Despite public opinion (in some cases the scrutiny is deserved), most of these companies work tirelessly to serve the public. We all benefit whether the innovation clears allergy congestion or gives a cancer patient another chance at life (I am the benefactor of the latter).
        I've been fortunate to be in the pharmaceutical industry for almost 10 years and to touch many patients lives. Social Media can afford us that opportunity exponentially. The great thing is that it is the industry pushing for this guidance/regulation so we can fulfill our obligations and responsibly interact with the public.
        Happy Thanksgiving to all!
        Dana

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  • Thanks Matt. Appreciate the link and the continue chat.

  • Thanks Matt. Appreciate the link and the continue chat.

  • Basically my comment on the “purists” is that a true SM purist would be about the “social” aspects of SM and not “business” aspects. Let's remember that SM was not built for commercial interests. But I understand what you mean in your definition. I suppose calling them SM purists vs. “crap at their jobs” is a kinder, gentler way to put it :)

    You can see my opinions on those same folks at end of article here: http://www.techguerilla.com/social-media-isnt-f

  • Basically my comment on the “purists” is that a true SM purist would be about the “social” aspects of SM and not “business” aspects. Let's remember that SM was not built for commercial interests. But I understand what you mean in your definition. I suppose calling them SM purists vs. “crap at their jobs” is a kinder, gentler way to put it :)

    You can see my opinions on those same folks at end of article here: http://www.techguerilla.com/social-media-isnt-f

  • That's it. I've made it. Connor said I “Brought IT!” I'm done.

  • That's it. I've made it. Connor said I “Brought IT!” I'm done.

  • Appreciate the fact you called me something I've never been called as much as the comment. Thanks, Hooner.

  • Appreciate the fact you called me something I've never been called as much as the comment. Thanks, Hooner.

  • Kind of see where you're going there, Andrew. I think it's less about protecting the virgin territory and more about finding more relevant ways to let brands support the network. Display ads in and of themselves haven't worked well for years (on- or off-line). Technology gives us infinite possibilities with them now. Let's make them better, interested and serve them up to the most relevant audiences.

    I would opt for better ads, not fewer ads. And also for better ways to engage the audiences around them in ways they find acceptable. What MySpace didn't do, maybe Facebook will?

  • Kind of see where you're going there, Andrew. I think it's less about protecting the virgin territory and more about finding more relevant ways to let brands support the network. Display ads in and of themselves haven't worked well for years (on- or off-line). Technology gives us infinite possibilities with them now. Let's make them better, interested and serve them up to the most relevant audiences.

    I would opt for better ads, not fewer ads. And also for better ways to engage the audiences around them in ways they find acceptable. What MySpace didn't do, maybe Facebook will?

  • Gracias, amigo.

  • Gracias, amigo.

  • Thanks Bob. Great points all around. Appreciate the comment.

  • Thanks Bob. Great points all around. Appreciate the comment.

  • Thanks for the pushback, Matt.

    The all-or-nothing approach is a literary device mostly. Nothing is
    that cut and dry.

    That, and the main point is not that businesses shouldn't be doing one
    and not the other or that you should sell, sell, sell. The point is
    mostly driven toward the social media strategist/thinker/manager/do-er
    in the organization to caution them that selling the fluff and not the
    business driving substance will leave them unemployed.

    This line, I don't get, though – “A purist by definition would not be
    encouraging companies to get onto twitter at all for example.” Perhaps
    we are seeing purists differently, but my definition of them is folks
    who are all about the conversation and engagement and touchy, feely,
    warm buttery kisses about social media and refuse to think of the
    medium in terms of business drivers. They do this largely because they
    don't understand business drivers or measures and thus don't know how
    to affect them. The blogger-turned-consultant (with no previous brand,
    marketing or public relations experience) gang is largely responsible
    for this void in the marketplace. These are the folks that sell
    Twitter profiles, Facebook pages and blogs and don't think about the
    client needs or measures of success first.

    Thanks for the push back again. Love the dialog.

  • Thanks for the pushback, Matt.

    The all-or-nothing approach is a literary device mostly. Nothing is
    that cut and dry.

    That, and the main point is not that businesses shouldn't be doing one
    and not the other or that you should sell, sell, sell. The point is
    mostly driven toward the social media strategist/thinker/manager/do-er
    in the organization to caution them that selling the fluff and not the
    business driving substance will leave them unemployed.

    This line, I don't get, though – “A purist by definition would not be
    encouraging companies to get onto twitter at all for example.” Perhaps
    we are seeing purists differently, but my definition of them is folks
    who are all about the conversation and engagement and touchy, feely,
    warm buttery kisses about social media and refuse to think of the
    medium in terms of business drivers. They do this largely because they
    don't understand business drivers or measures and thus don't know how
    to affect them. The blogger-turned-consultant (with no previous brand,
    marketing or public relations experience) gang is largely responsible
    for this void in the marketplace. These are the folks that sell
    Twitter profiles, Facebook pages and blogs and don't think about the
    client needs or measures of success first.

    Thanks for the push back again. Love the dialog.

  • Pingback: Why Social Media Purists Won’t Last « 93octane()

  • Honestly I'm not sure I take your point. You imply that these statements are wrong for a business:

    “participate in the conversation,” “engage your customers,” and “talk with us not to us.”

    You also imply that these activities will not drive the bottom line. (well, you do much more than imply but let's leave it at that).

    Later on in the article you're a bit softer than that, and seem to face up to the fact that you can't do one (call to action) without the other so I'm not really sure where you're coming from.

    Could you *only* be conversational and touchy feeling on twitter as a business? Sure. Is that a bad thing? Not particularly, *if* you knew going in what your objectives were. It's brand building. It's the difference between advertising and marketing. Accurately measuring that influence on the other hand would be very difficult. The reverse could be said for *only* doing call to action activity on twitter. My opinion is that neither approach alone maximizes your return, but there are successful examples to be found at either end of the spectrum.

    In the end however, it comes down to one thing. Value. You can successfully spit out nothing but “Buy Now!!” links on twitter, and have a ton of followers and business….if those links contain something with enough value to those followers (we'll call it the woot.com of twitter). They don't care about conversation in this case, only the link itself has value. In another instance perhaps you sell tshirts, you come out with a new one every few weeks. Who other than some already hardcore loyal fan is going to be following you? If your conversation and personality provides enough value for people to follow however, now you have a platform to periodically spit out a link to that new tshirt without repercussion to your followers. Your brand in this case is you, not your product, not your links.

    Are there “social media experts” out there who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground? Certainly. If you've read any of my articles you know that I think most of them fall into this category. In my experience there are a lot of folks out there confusing “knowing how to use a platform” with “knowing how to leverage a platform”. But I think the definition of a purist in your context simply doesn't hold water. A purist by definition would not be encouraging companies to get onto twitter at all for example.

    I do appreciate the dialog that the article has created however.

  • Honestly I'm not sure I take your point. You imply that these statements are wrong for a business:

    “participate in the conversation,” “engage your customers,” and “talk with us not to us.”

    You also imply that these activities will not drive the bottom line. (well, you do much more than imply but let's leave it at that).

    Later on in the article you're a bit softer than that, and seem to face up to the fact that you can't do one (call to action) without the other so I'm not really sure where you're coming from.

    Could you *only* be conversational and touchy feeling on twitter as a business? Sure. Is that a bad thing? Not particularly, *if* you knew going in what your objectives were. It's brand building. It's the difference between advertising and marketing. Accurately measuring that influence on the other hand would be very difficult. The reverse could be said for *only* doing call to action activity on twitter. My opinion is that neither approach alone maximizes your return, but there are successful examples to be found at either end of the spectrum.

    In the end however, it comes down to one thing. Value. You can successfully spit out nothing but “Buy Now!!” links on twitter, and have a ton of followers and business….if those links contain something with enough value to those followers (we'll call it the woot.com of twitter). They don't care about conversation in this case, only the link itself has value. In another instance perhaps you sell tshirts, you come out with a new one every few weeks. Who other than some already hardcore loyal fan is going to be following you? If your conversation and personality provides enough value for people to follow however, now you have a platform to periodically spit out a link to that new tshirt without repercussion to your followers. Your brand in this case is you, not your product, not your links.

    Are there “social media experts” out there who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground? Certainly. If you've read any of my articles you know that I think most of them fall into this category. In my experience there are a lot of folks out there confusing “knowing how to use a platform” with “knowing how to leverage a platform”. But I think the definition of a purist in your context simply doesn't hold water. A purist by definition would not be encouraging companies to get onto twitter at all for example.

    I do appreciate the dialog that the article has created however.

  • Honestly I'm not sure I take your point. You imply that these statements are wrong for a business:

    “participate in the conversation,” “engage your customers,” and “talk with us not to us.”

    You also imply that these activities will not drive the bottom line. (well, you do much more than imply but let's leave it at that).

    Later on in the article you're a bit softer than that, and seem to face up to the fact that you can't do one (call to action) without the other so I'm not really sure where you're coming from.

    Could you *only* be conversational and touchy feeling on twitter as a business? Sure. Is that a bad thing? Not particularly, *if* you knew going in what your objectives were. It's brand building. It's the difference between advertising and marketing. Accurately measuring that influence on the other hand would be very difficult. The reverse could be said for *only* doing call to action activity on twitter. My opinion is that neither approach alone maximizes your return, but there are successful examples to be found at either end of the spectrum.

    In the end however, it comes down to one thing. Value. You can successfully spit out nothing but “Buy Now!!” links on twitter, and have a ton of followers and business….if those links contain something with enough value to those followers (we'll call it the woot.com of twitter). They don't care about conversation in this case, only the link itself has value. In another instance perhaps you sell tshirts, you come out with a new one every few weeks. Who other than some already hardcore loyal fan is going to be following you? If your conversation and personality provides enough value for people to follow however, now you have a platform to periodically spit out a link to that new tshirt without repercussion to your followers. Your brand in this case is you, not your product, not your links.

    Are there “social media experts” out there who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground? Certainly. If you've read any of my articles you know that I think most of them fall into this category. In my experience there are a lot of folks out there confusing “knowing how to use a platform” with “knowing how to leverage a platform”. But I think the definition of a purist in your context simply doesn't hold water. A purist by definition would not be encouraging companies to get onto twitter at all for example.

    I do appreciate the dialog that the article has created however.

  • Honestly I'm not sure I take your point. You imply that these statements are wrong for a business:

    “participate in the conversation,” “engage your customers,” and “talk with us not to us.”

    You also imply that these activities will not drive the bottom line. (well, you do much more than imply but let's leave it at that).

    Later on in the article you're a bit softer than that, and seem to face up to the fact that you can't do one (call to action) without the other so I'm not really sure where you're coming from.

    Could you *only* be conversational and touchy feeling on twitter as a business? Sure. Is that a bad thing? Not particularly, *if* you knew going in what your objectives were. It's brand building. It's the difference between advertising and marketing. Accurately measuring that influence on the other hand would be very difficult. The reverse could be said for *only* doing call to action activity on twitter. My opinion is that neither approach alone maximizes your return, but there are successful examples to be found at either end of the spectrum.

    In the end however, it comes down to one thing. Value. You can successfully spit out nothing but “Buy Now!!” links on twitter, and have a ton of followers and business….if those links contain something with enough value to those followers (we'll call it the woot.com of twitter). They don't care about conversation in this case, only the link itself has value. In another instance perhaps you sell tshirts, you come out with a new one every few weeks. Who other than some already hardcore loyal fan is going to be following you? If your conversation and personality provides enough value for people to follow however, now you have a platform to periodically spit out a link to that new tshirt without repercussion to your followers. Your brand in this case is you, not your product, not your links.

    Are there “social media experts” out there who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground? Certainly. If you've read any of my articles you know that I think most of them fall into this category. In my experience there are a lot of folks out there confusing “knowing how to use a platform” with “knowing how to leverage a platform”. But I think the definition of a purist in your context simply doesn't hold water. A purist by definition would not be encouraging companies to get onto twitter at all for example.

    I do appreciate the dialog that the article has created however.

  • Honestly I'm not sure I take your point. You imply that these statements are wrong for a business:

    “participate in the conversation,” “engage your customers,” and “talk with us not to us.”

    You also imply that these activities will not drive the bottom line. (well, you do much more than imply but let's leave it at that).

    Later on in the article you're a bit softer than that, and seem to face up to the fact that you can't do one (call to action) without the other so I'm not really sure where you're coming from.

    Could you *only* be conversational and touchy feeling on twitter as a business? Sure. Is that a bad thing? Not particularly, *if* you knew going in what your objectives were. It's brand building. It's the difference between advertising and marketing. Accurately measuring that influence on the other hand would be very difficult. The reverse could be said for *only* doing call to action activity on twitter. My opinion is that neither approach alone maximizes your return, but there are successful examples to be found at either end of the spectrum.

    In the end however, it comes down to one thing. Value. You can successfully spit out nothing but “Buy Now!!” links on twitter, and have a ton of followers and business….if those links contain something with enough value to those followers (we'll call it the woot.com of twitter). They don't care about conversation in this case, only the link itself has value. In another instance perhaps you sell tshirts, you come out with a new one every few weeks. Who other than some already hardcore loyal fan is going to be following you? If your conversation and personality provides enough value for people to follow however, now you have a platform to periodically spit out a link to that new tshirt without repercussion to your followers. Your brand in this case is you, not your product, not your links.

    Are there “social media experts” out there who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground? Certainly. If you've read any of my articles you know that I think most of them fall into this category. In my experience there are a lot of folks out there confusing “knowing how to use a platform” with “knowing how to leverage a platform”. But I think the definition of a purist in your context simply doesn't hold water. A purist by definition would not be encouraging companies to get onto twitter at all for example.

    I do appreciate the dialog that the article has created however.

  • Honestly I'm not sure I take your point. You imply that these statements are wrong for a business:

    “participate in the conversation,” “engage your customers,” and “talk with us not to us.”

    You also imply that these activities will not drive the bottom line. (well, you do much more than imply but let's leave it at that).

    Later on in the article you're a bit softer than that, and seem to face up to the fact that you can't do one (call to action) without the other so I'm not really sure where you're coming from.

    Could you *only* be conversational and touchy feeling on twitter as a business? Sure. Is that a bad thing? Not particularly, *if* you knew going in what your objectives were. It's brand building. It's the difference between advertising and marketing. Accurately measuring that influence on the other hand would be very difficult. The reverse could be said for *only* doing call to action activity on twitter. My opinion is that neither approach alone maximizes your return, but there are successful examples to be found at either end of the spectrum.

    In the end however, it comes down to one thing. Value. You can successfully spit out nothing but “Buy Now!!” links on twitter, and have a ton of followers and business….if those links contain something with enough value to those followers (we'll call it the woot.com of twitter). They don't care about conversation in this case, only the link itself has value. In another instance perhaps you sell tshirts, you come out with a new one every few weeks. Who other than some already hardcore loyal fan is going to be following you? If your conversation and personality provides enough value for people to follow however, now you have a platform to periodically spit out a link to that new tshirt without repercussion to your followers. Your brand in this case is you, not your product, not your links.

    Are there “social media experts” out there who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground? Certainly. If you've read any of my articles you know that I think most of them fall into this category. In my experience there are a lot of folks out there confusing “knowing how to use a platform” with “knowing how to leverage a platform”. But I think the definition of a purist in your context simply doesn't hold water. A purist by definition would not be encouraging companies to get onto twitter at all for example.

    I do appreciate the dialog that the article has created however.

    • Thanks for the pushback, Matt.

      The all-or-nothing approach is a literary device mostly. Nothing is
      that cut and dry.

      That, and the main point is not that businesses shouldn't be doing one
      and not the other or that you should sell, sell, sell. The point is
      mostly driven toward the social media strategist/thinker/manager/do-er
      in the organization to caution them that selling the fluff and not the
      business driving substance will leave them unemployed.

      This line, I don't get, though – “A purist by definition would not be
      encouraging companies to get onto twitter at all for example.” Perhaps
      we are seeing purists differently, but my definition of them is folks
      who are all about the conversation and engagement and touchy, feely,
      warm buttery kisses about social media and refuse to think of the
      medium in terms of business drivers. They do this largely because they
      don't understand business drivers or measures and thus don't know how
      to affect them. The blogger-turned-consultant (with no previous brand,
      marketing or public relations experience) gang is largely responsible
      for this void in the marketplace. These are the folks that sell
      Twitter profiles, Facebook pages and blogs and don't think about the
      client needs or measures of success first.

      Thanks for the push back again. Love the dialog.

      • Basically my comment on the “purists” is that a true SM purist would be about the “social” aspects of SM and not “business” aspects. Let's remember that SM was not built for commercial interests. But I understand what you mean in your definition. I suppose calling them SM purists vs. “crap at their jobs” is a kinder, gentler way to put it :)

        You can see my opinions on those same folks at end of article here: http://www.techguerilla.com/social-media-isnt-f

        • Thanks Matt. Appreciate the link and the continue chat.

  • Thanks. Shoulda played basketball I guess. Heh.

  • Thanks. Shoulda played basketball I guess. Heh.

  • Thanks. Shoulda played basketball I guess. Heh.

  • kreedy

    As you do most of the time, you hit it. thanks.

  • kreedy

    As you do most of the time, you hit it. thanks.

  • kreedy

    As you do most of the time, you hit it. thanks.

  • kreedy

    As you do most of the time, you hit it. thanks.

    • Thanks. Shoulda played basketball I guess. Heh.

  • You're welcome, you're welcome, you're welcome.

    And thank you, too.

  • You're welcome, you're welcome, you're welcome.

    And thank you, too.

  • You're welcome, you're welcome, you're welcome.

    And thank you, too.

  • Thank you, Doug. Great points.

  • Thank you, Doug. Great points.

  • Thank you, Doug. Great points.

  • Great thoughts, Jim. Thanks for this!

  • Great thoughts, Jim. Thanks for this!

  • Great thoughts, Jim. Thanks for this!

  • finally someone said it. thank you, thank you, THANK YOU.

  • finally someone said it. thank you, thank you, THANK YOU.

  • finally someone said it. thank you, thank you, THANK YOU.

  • finally someone said it. thank you, thank you, THANK YOU.

    • You're welcome, you're welcome, you're welcome.

      And thank you, too.

  • Pingback: 11 Must Save Social Media Links For The Week « Direct Marketing Observations()

  • Posts like this are valuable– I think we are going to see social media adoption coming in waves, meaning that cycles will repeat:
    1- “Shiny Object,” or “Let's Get Me a Social Media”
    2- Traction, or some sort of attention/branding/success through certain SM channels
    3- Realization that you need business goals to strive for before diving in.

    Maturity happens when #3 becomes #1.

    Thanks Jason.

  • Posts like this are valuable– I think we are going to see social media adoption coming in waves, meaning that cycles will repeat:
    1- “Shiny Object,” or “Let's Get Me a Social Media”
    2- Traction, or some sort of attention/branding/success through certain SM channels
    3- Realization that you need business goals to strive for before diving in.

    Maturity happens when #3 becomes #1.

    Thanks Jason.

  • Posts like this are valuable– I think we are going to see social media adoption coming in waves, meaning that cycles will repeat:
    1- “Shiny Object,” or “Let's Get Me a Social Media”
    2- Traction, or some sort of attention/branding/success through certain SM channels
    3- Realization that you need business goals to strive for before diving in.

    Maturity happens when #3 becomes #1.

    Thanks Jason.

  • Posts like this are valuable– I think we are going to see social media adoption coming in waves, meaning that cycles will repeat:
    1- “Shiny Object,” or “Let's Get Me a Social Media”
    2- Traction, or some sort of attention/branding/success through certain SM channels
    3- Realization that you need business goals to strive for before diving in.

    Maturity happens when #3 becomes #1.

    Thanks Jason.

  • As long as new communications media appear, so too will the carpetbaggers who only see capitalistic gain from the media. Think about it. Radio was intended to inform and entertain but that notion was soon displaced by only airing programs which advertisers thought were most valuable. Same with TV. Internet. Now SM. It's just the nature of business. I think the trick is to recognize the difference btwn the essence of the medium (human communications) and the commercialism of the medium and then dance with it. Just like TiVo.

  • As long as new communications media appear, so too will the carpetbaggers who only see capitalistic gain from the media. Think about it. Radio was intended to inform and entertain but that notion was soon displaced by only airing programs which advertisers thought were most valuable. Same with TV. Internet. Now SM. It's just the nature of business. I think the trick is to recognize the difference btwn the essence of the medium (human communications) and the commercialism of the medium and then dance with it. Just like TiVo.

  • As long as new communications media appear, so too will the carpetbaggers who only see capitalistic gain from the media. Think about it. Radio was intended to inform and entertain but that notion was soon displaced by only airing programs which advertisers thought were most valuable. Same with TV. Internet. Now SM. It's just the nature of business. I think the trick is to recognize the difference btwn the essence of the medium (human communications) and the commercialism of the medium and then dance with it. Just like TiVo.

  • As long as new communications media appear, so too will the carpetbaggers who only see capitalistic gain from the media. Think about it. Radio was intended to inform and entertain but that notion was soon displaced by only airing programs which advertisers thought were most valuable. Same with TV. Internet. Now SM. It's just the nature of business. I think the trick is to recognize the difference btwn the essence of the medium (human communications) and the commercialism of the medium and then dance with it. Just like TiVo.

  • As long as new communications media appear, so too will the carpetbaggers who only see capitalistic gain from the media. Think about it. Radio was intended to inform and entertain but that notion was soon displaced by only airing programs which advertisers thought were most valuable. Same with TV. Internet. Now SM. It's just the nature of business. I think the trick is to recognize the difference btwn the essence of the medium (human communications) and the commercialism of the medium and then dance with it. Just like TiVo.

    • Great thoughts, Jim. Thanks for this!

  • Good post. It's nice to see a bit of a gut-check for the future of social media. I would argue the stakes are a little higher, though. It seems to me that any successful social network is created and propagated through the adoption of a younger user base. Once that network goes to “commericial” (MySpace), the natives flock to greener, less ad-cluttered pastures. Would a more direct, less finessed approach to marketing on Facebook simply scare away the core users and force them to dub the next successful social media platform? Would the marketets and advertisers just follow them there? Where does that race end? Maybe we should cut that infinite loop now and figure out a way to not slash-and-burn Facebook to the ground with marketing.

  • Good post. It's nice to see a bit of a gut-check for the future of social media. I would argue the stakes are a little higher, though. It seems to me that any successful social network is created and propagated through the adoption of a younger user base. Once that network goes to “commericial” (MySpace), the natives flock to greener, less ad-cluttered pastures. Would a more direct, less finessed approach to marketing on Facebook simply scare away the core users and force them to dub the next successful social media platform? Would the marketets and advertisers just follow them there? Where does that race end? Maybe we should cut that infinite loop now and figure out a way to not slash-and-burn Facebook to the ground with marketing.

  • Good post. It's nice to see a bit of a gut-check for the future of social media. I would argue the stakes are a little higher, though. It seems to me that any successful social network is created and propagated through the adoption of a younger user base. Once that network goes to “commericial” (MySpace), the natives flock to greener, less ad-cluttered pastures. Would a more direct, less finessed approach to marketing on Facebook simply scare away the core users and force them to dub the next successful social media platform? Would the marketets and advertisers just follow them there? Where does that race end? Maybe we should cut that infinite loop now and figure out a way to not slash-and-burn Facebook to the ground with marketing.

  • Good post. It's nice to see a bit of a gut-check for the future of social media. I would argue the stakes are a little higher, though. It seems to me that any successful social network is created and propagated through the adoption of a younger user base. Once that network goes to “commericial” (MySpace), the natives flock to greener, less ad-cluttered pastures. Would a more direct, less finessed approach to marketing on Facebook simply scare away the core users and force them to dub the next successful social media platform? Would the marketets and advertisers just follow them there? Where does that race end? Maybe we should cut that infinite loop now and figure out a way to not slash-and-burn Facebook to the ground with marketing.

    • Kind of see where you're going there, Andrew. I think it's less about protecting the virgin territory and more about finding more relevant ways to let brands support the network. Display ads in and of themselves haven't worked well for years (on- or off-line). Technology gives us infinite possibilities with them now. Let's make them better, interested and serve them up to the most relevant audiences.

      I would opt for better ads, not fewer ads. And also for better ways to engage the audiences around them in ways they find acceptable. What MySpace didn't do, maybe Facebook will?

  • Thanks for the thoughts, Paul. Keep on keepin' on my friend.

  • Thanks for the thoughts, Paul. Keep on keepin' on my friend.

  • Thanks for the thoughts, Paul. Keep on keepin' on my friend.

  • @#$%^!!!! :-)

    In 2005 I was doing the same thing I'm doing today, just with a different and more limited set of tools (blogs mostly), and that's proving the case for new media.

    I'm a purist, but enough of a pragmatist to know that social media is not the begin-all/end-all. It's part of an integrated marketing effort that involves an emphasis on calls-to-action, lead generation and bottom-line differentiation.

    One of the largest deals we ever signed at the company at which I work came as a result of my participation in the blog and social media spheres. You're right, it's the longer road, but it can and does lead to a payoff.

    Chris Baggott just testified to the positive effect blogs are having. How long have they been around, more than a decade? Give Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter et al time to mature. Each will find its place in the marketing mix. As you noted, it already is.

  • @#$%^!!!! :-)

    In 2005 I was doing the same thing I'm doing today, just with a different and more limited set of tools (blogs mostly), and that's proving the case for new media.

    I'm a purist, but enough of a pragmatist to know that social media is not the begin-all/end-all. It's part of an integrated marketing effort that involves an emphasis on calls-to-action, lead generation and bottom-line differentiation.

    One of the largest deals we ever signed at the company at which I work came as a result of my participation in the blog and social media spheres. You're right, it's the longer road, but it can and does lead to a payoff.

    Chris Baggott just testified to the positive effect blogs are having. How long have they been around, more than a decade? Give Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter et al time to mature. Each will find its place in the marketing mix. As you noted, it already is.

  • @#$%^!!!! :-)

    In 2005 I was doing the same thing I'm doing today, just with a different and more limited set of tools (blogs mostly), and that's proving the case for new media.

    I'm a purist, but enough of a pragmatist to know that social media is not the begin-all/end-all. It's part of an integrated marketing effort that involves an emphasis on calls-to-action, lead generation and bottom-line differentiation.

    One of the largest deals we ever signed at the company at which I work came as a result of my participation in the blog and social media spheres. You're right, it's the longer road, but it can and does lead to a payoff.

    Chris Baggott just testified to the positive effect blogs are having. How long have they been around, more than a decade? Give Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter et al time to mature. Each will find its place in the marketing mix. As you noted, it already is.

  • @#$%^!!!! :-)

    In 2005 I was doing the same thing I'm doing today, just with a different and more limited set of tools (blogs mostly), and that's proving the case for new media.

    I'm a purist, but enough of a pragmatist to know that social media is not the begin-all/end-all. It's part of an integrated marketing effort that involves an emphasis on calls-to-action, lead generation and bottom-line differentiation.

    One of the largest deals we ever signed at the company at which I work came as a result of my participation in the blog and social media spheres. You're right, it's the longer road, but it can and does lead to a payoff.

    Chris Baggott just testified to the positive effect blogs are having. How long have they been around, more than a decade? Give Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter et al time to mature. Each will find its place in the marketing mix. As you noted, it already is.

    • Thanks for the thoughts, Paul. Keep on keepin' on my friend.

  • Pingback: Social Media Pragmatists will win over the Social Media Purists | THE brand.intelligenceâ„¢()

  • Thanks Chris. Great to get some background an research to back up the
    assertions.

  • Thanks Chris. Great to get some background an research to back up the
    assertions.

  • Thanks Chris. Great to get some background an research to back up the
    assertions.

  • Great post and excellent conversation going on here Jason.

    Gartner called a lot of this in their August Wave Report where the show Corporate Blogging moving up the slope of enlightenment and 'microblogging' crossing into the trough of disillusionment. (see the graph here: http://tinyurl.com/yk2dqp5 )

    Here is an excerpt from a post I wrote when the report came out:

    Why is Corporate Blogging now screaming up the ‘Slope of Enlightenment’? Because the benefits have begun to crystallize and become widely understood. This is about search and conversion. Engagement means happy customers, not happy “readers”….

    Thanks for kicking this off Jason.

  • Great post and excellent conversation going on here Jason.

    Gartner called a lot of this in their August Wave Report where the show Corporate Blogging moving up the slope of enlightenment and 'microblogging' crossing into the trough of disillusionment. (see the graph here: http://tinyurl.com/yk2dqp5 )

    Here is an excerpt from a post I wrote when the report came out:

    Why is Corporate Blogging now screaming up the ‘Slope of Enlightenment’? Because the benefits have begun to crystallize and become widely understood. This is about search and conversion. Engagement means happy customers, not happy “readers”….

    Thanks for kicking this off Jason.

  • Great post and excellent conversation going on here Jason.

    Gartner called a lot of this in their August Wave Report where the show Corporate Blogging moving up the slope of enlightenment and 'microblogging' crossing into the trough of disillusionment. (see the graph here: http://tinyurl.com/yk2dqp5 )

    Here is an excerpt from a post I wrote when the report came out:

    Why is Corporate Blogging now screaming up the ‘Slope of Enlightenment’? Because the benefits have begun to crystallize and become widely understood. This is about search and conversion. Engagement means happy customers, not happy “readers”….

    Thanks for kicking this off Jason.

  • Great post and excellent conversation going on here Jason.

    Gartner called a lot of this in their August Wave Report where the show Corporate Blogging moving up the slope of enlightenment and 'microblogging' crossing into the trough of disillusionment. (see the graph here: http://tinyurl.com/yk2dqp5 )

    Here is an excerpt from a post I wrote when the report came out:

    Why is Corporate Blogging now screaming up the ‘Slope of Enlightenment’? Because the benefits have begun to crystallize and become widely understood. This is about search and conversion. Engagement means happy customers, not happy “readers”….

    Thanks for kicking this off Jason.

    • Thanks Chris. Great to get some background an research to back up the
      assertions.

  • Great points, Bob. Firmly agreed on this end. Thanks.

  • Great points, Bob. Firmly agreed on this end. Thanks.

  • Great points, Bob. Firmly agreed on this end. Thanks.

  • Well and simply put. Thanks, JP.

  • Well and simply put. Thanks, JP.

  • Well and simply put. Thanks, JP.

  • Thanks Adam. Appreciate the perspective from someone doing it right.

  • Thanks Adam. Appreciate the perspective from someone doing it right.

  • Thanks Adam. Appreciate the perspective from someone doing it right.

  • Thanks Nicole.

  • Thanks Nicole.

  • Thanks Nicole.

  • I certainly wouldn't push real transaction over Twitter either but
    driving people to your own site for that from Twitter is smart and
    trackable.

    And I'd be remiss if I didn't tell you that Backupify.com backs up all
    tweets, including DMs as well as several other cloud based services
    (Facebook, Gmail, Google Docs, Flickr, an more.) I am involved with
    the company and am happy to answer more questions.

  • I certainly wouldn't push real transaction over Twitter either but
    driving people to your own site for that from Twitter is smart and
    trackable.

    And I'd be remiss if I didn't tell you that Backupify.com backs up all
    tweets, including DMs as well as several other cloud based services
    (Facebook, Gmail, Google Docs, Flickr, an more.) I am involved with
    the company and am happy to answer more questions.

  • I certainly wouldn't push real transaction over Twitter either but
    driving people to your own site for that from Twitter is smart and
    trackable.

    And I'd be remiss if I didn't tell you that Backupify.com backs up all
    tweets, including DMs as well as several other cloud based services
    (Facebook, Gmail, Google Docs, Flickr, an more.) I am involved with
    the company and am happy to answer more questions.

  • Good post Jason and I would certainly not argue with the underlying premise. To read some of the 'fluff' that's doing the rounds, the uninitiated could easily think that social media is just an attempt to have a virtual group hug with the entire web community. Ultimately, just like any other business activity, it must show a commercial return against the expense invested. However, there are a couple of caveats I would lob in:

    a) You mention the use of the company blog. I agree that these should be pushing response but a balance is needed to ensure that they do not become a blatant advert. Otherwise you will loose readership and then depress aggregate sales.

    b) I do see similarities between what is happening now with social media and what happened in the 90's with CRM. They can both be used to increase value but some of that is longer term. If the expectation is created that all of the value will be delivered through short term sales then social media, just like CRM, will rapidly become discredited.

    Cheers,

    Bob

  • Good post Jason and I would certainly not argue with the underlying premise. To read some of the 'fluff' that's doing the rounds, the uninitiated could easily think that social media is just an attempt to have a virtual group hug with the entire web community. Ultimately, just like any other business activity, it must show a commercial return against the expense invested. However, there are a couple of caveats I would lob in:

    a) You mention the use of the company blog. I agree that these should be pushing response but a balance is needed to ensure that they do not become a blatant advert. Otherwise you will loose readership and then depress aggregate sales.

    b) I do see similarities between what is happening now with social media and what happened in the 90's with CRM. They can both be used to increase value but some of that is longer term. If the expectation is created that all of the value will be delivered through short term sales then social media, just like CRM, will rapidly become discredited.

    Cheers,

    Bob

  • Good post Jason and I would certainly not argue with the underlying premise. To read some of the 'fluff' that's doing the rounds, the uninitiated could easily think that social media is just an attempt to have a virtual group hug with the entire web community. Ultimately, just like any other business activity, it must show a commercial return against the expense invested. However, there are a couple of caveats I would lob in:

    a) You mention the use of the company blog. I agree that these should be pushing response but a balance is needed to ensure that they do not become a blatant advert. Otherwise you will loose readership and then depress aggregate sales.

    b) I do see similarities between what is happening now with social media and what happened in the 90's with CRM. They can both be used to increase value but some of that is longer term. If the expectation is created that all of the value will be delivered through short term sales then social media, just like CRM, will rapidly become discredited.

    Cheers,

    Bob

  • bobbevan

    Good post Jason and I would certainly not argue with the underlying premise. To read some of the 'fluff' that's doing the rounds, the uninitiated could easily think that social media is just an attempt to have a virtual group hug with the entire web community. Ultimately, just like any other business activity, it must show a commercial return against the expense invested. However, there are a couple of caveats I would lob in:

    a) You mention the use of the company blog. I agree that these should be pushing response but a balance is needed to ensure that they do not become a blatant advert. Otherwise you will loose readership and then depress aggregate sales.

    b) I do see similarities between what is happening now with social media and what happened in the 90's with CRM. They can both be used to increase value but some of that is longer term. If the expectation is created that all of the value will be delivered through short term sales then social media, just like CRM, will rapidly become discredited.

    Cheers,

    Bob

    • Great points, Bob. Firmly agreed on this end. Thanks.

    • Thanks Bob. Great points all around. Appreciate the comment.

  • Yep, went totally lazy with that one. I'm a purist on some issues – full disclosure, engaging – but have always said that it needs to be tied into something.

    Sorta like PR. We're here to get people to know about a company, its products, to get the word out. Same with SM. And that's measurable in various ways. :)

  • Yep, went totally lazy with that one. I'm a purist on some issues – full disclosure, engaging – but have always said that it needs to be tied into something.

    Sorta like PR. We're here to get people to know about a company, its products, to get the word out. Same with SM. And that's measurable in various ways. :)

  • Yep, went totally lazy with that one. I'm a purist on some issues – full disclosure, engaging – but have always said that it needs to be tied into something.

    Sorta like PR. We're here to get people to know about a company, its products, to get the word out. Same with SM. And that's measurable in various ways. :)

  • themetz

    My team advises brands on how to manage the social customer. We were unable and unwilling to remain social media purists because it didn't deliver enough value to our customers (CEOs and CMOs of kick-ass consumer brands).

  • themetz

    My team advises brands on how to manage the social customer. We were unable and unwilling to remain social media purists because it didn't deliver enough value to our customers (CEOs and CMOs of kick-ass consumer brands).

  • themetz

    My team advises brands on how to manage the social customer. We were unable and unwilling to remain social media purists because it didn't deliver enough value to our customers (CEOs and CMOs of kick-ass consumer brands).

  • themetz

    My team advises brands on how to manage the social customer. We were unable and unwilling to remain social media purists because it didn't deliver enough value to our customers (CEOs and CMOs of kick-ass consumer brands).

    • Thanks Adam. Appreciate the perspective from someone doing it right.

  • scramblethis

    Agree w/you, Peter. Balancing communications means meaningful ones. I work for a non-profit (http://www.swallowhillmusic.org), and although being a charity, we always think on the bottom line. Otherwise, we won't be able to continue our services or offer our programs. Our Social Media strategies should help accomplish that ultimate goal.

  • scramblethis

    Agree w/you, Peter. Balancing communications means meaningful ones. I work for a non-profit (http://www.swallowhillmusic.org), and although being a charity, we always think on the bottom line. Otherwise, we won't be able to continue our services or offer our programs. Our Social Media strategies should help accomplish that ultimate goal.

  • scramblethis

    Agree w/you, Peter. Balancing communications means meaningful ones. I work for a non-profit (http://www.swallowhillmusic.org), and although being a charity, we always think on the bottom line. Otherwise, we won't be able to continue our services or offer our programs. Our Social Media strategies should help accomplish that ultimate goal.

  • This is a great post! I am adding and exerpt to my blog! With a link back to your full post. Money, money, money!

    Thanks Nicole

  • This is a great post! I am adding and exerpt to my blog! With a link back to your full post. Money, money, money!

    Thanks Nicole

  • This is a great post! I am adding and exerpt to my blog! With a link back to your full post. Money, money, money!

    Thanks Nicole

  • This is a great post! I am adding and exerpt to my blog! With a link back to your full post. Money, money, money!

    Thanks Nicole

  • I'm not tweeting anything that looks like a transaction until Twitter is secure and reliable.

    The idea of committing commerce of any kind through wireless networks and a non-encrypted server is laughable. Add to this Twitter's disastrous messaging system, which has no means of spam or phishing control, no filters, no way to archive or organize DMs, and all the usability of a dialup BBS mailbox, and the idea of TwiCommerce seems pretty unlikely.

    Not ranting on your idea — just Twitter's current inability to support it.

  • I'm not tweeting anything that looks like a transaction until Twitter is secure and reliable.

    The idea of committing commerce of any kind through wireless networks and a non-encrypted server is laughable. Add to this Twitter's disastrous messaging system, which has no means of spam or phishing control, no filters, no way to archive or organize DMs, and all the usability of a dialup BBS mailbox, and the idea of TwiCommerce seems pretty unlikely.

    Not ranting on your idea — just Twitter's current inability to support it.

  • I'm not tweeting anything that looks like a transaction until Twitter is secure and reliable.

    The idea of committing commerce of any kind through wireless networks and a non-encrypted server is laughable. Add to this Twitter's disastrous messaging system, which has no means of spam or phishing control, no filters, no way to archive or organize DMs, and all the usability of a dialup BBS mailbox, and the idea of TwiCommerce seems pretty unlikely.

    Not ranting on your idea — just Twitter's current inability to support it.

  • You nailed it with this one, Falls. Great post.

  • You nailed it with this one, Falls. Great post.

  • You nailed it with this one, Falls. Great post.

  • You nailed it with this one, Falls. Great post.

  • rogerharris

    Okay. I get that. You're right, it depends on how you characterize a “purist.” My sense here is that it is difficult to pigeonhole the diverse array of opinions and practices. So maybe we can define exactly what a purist is. I consider myself somewhat of a purist in the need to engage via meaningful conversation, but I am certainly not against ads and would always recommend a call-to-action. But like you say, it can be a delicate balance.

  • rogerharris

    Okay. I get that. You're right, it depends on how you characterize a “purist.” My sense here is that it is difficult to pigeonhole the diverse array of opinions and practices. So maybe we can define exactly what a purist is. I consider myself somewhat of a purist in the need to engage via meaningful conversation, but I am certainly not against ads and would always recommend a call-to-action. But like you say, it can be a delicate balance.

  • rogerharris

    Okay. I get that. You're right, it depends on how you characterize a “purist.” My sense here is that it is difficult to pigeonhole the diverse array of opinions and practices. So maybe we can define exactly what a purist is. I consider myself somewhat of a purist in the need to engage via meaningful conversation, but I am certainly not against ads and would always recommend a call-to-action. But like you say, it can be a delicate balance.

  • And I hereby declare this the New World Order for 2010. You Brought IT with this one Jason, and I think we all needed to hear it. Giving you a high-five.

  • And I hereby declare this the New World Order for 2010. You Brought IT with this one Jason, and I think we all needed to hear it. Giving you a high-five.

  • And I hereby declare this the New World Order for 2010. You Brought IT with this one Jason, and I think we all needed to hear it. Giving you a high-five.

  • And I hereby declare this the New World Order for 2010. You Brought IT with this one Jason, and I think we all needed to hear it. Giving you a high-five.

    • That's it. I've made it. Connor said I “Brought IT!” I'm done.

  • Certainly. I wasn't articulate enough in my response. You definitely need clear business objectives. I'm arguing against the “bolt-on” mentality that still exists no matter how fluent client and counsel are. I'm sure you can attest to success within a client's company and externally when you're working with someone who's breathing the same air as you. Not just hiring you to plug a hole. The programs and counsel, even with great biz objectives, will only bring a company to a sink or swim point. They have to jump all the way in, believe it, use it an live it – not just throw $ at it. It's hard to visualize I suppose but there are companies doing well not because they trust their counsel but because they're living it. They're using it. It's an honest to god part of their life.

    I agree with you about advertising. It works and I'm looking forward to new ways for consumers to sponsor things they enjoy. Kickstarter and the Put This On blog is a great example of that. I guess I just want to see more functionality, more true value in the space. Not another half-baked microsite that eats up budget.

    I suppose it all stems from all parties settling for less more often than not. Yes, determining factors of time, money, etc. loom large but – to your point – people sort of have the psychology of these tools backwards. They're mistaking ease-of-use for larger reach and designing towards that when, instead (when thresholds are lowered), there is a stronger need for focus. What really matters in those 2 seconds someone is paying attention to you?

  • Certainly. I wasn't articulate enough in my response. You definitely need clear business objectives. I'm arguing against the “bolt-on” mentality that still exists no matter how fluent client and counsel are. I'm sure you can attest to success within a client's company and externally when you're working with someone who's breathing the same air as you. Not just hiring you to plug a hole. The programs and counsel, even with great biz objectives, will only bring a company to a sink or swim point. They have to jump all the way in, believe it, use it an live it – not just throw $ at it. It's hard to visualize I suppose but there are companies doing well not because they trust their counsel but because they're living it. They're using it. It's an honest to god part of their life.

    I agree with you about advertising. It works and I'm looking forward to new ways for consumers to sponsor things they enjoy. Kickstarter and the Put This On blog is a great example of that. I guess I just want to see more functionality, more true value in the space. Not another half-baked microsite that eats up budget.

    I suppose it all stems from all parties settling for less more often than not. Yes, determining factors of time, money, etc. loom large but – to your point – people sort of have the psychology of these tools backwards. They're mistaking ease-of-use for larger reach and designing towards that when, instead (when thresholds are lowered), there is a stronger need for focus. What really matters in those 2 seconds someone is paying attention to you?

  • Certainly. I wasn't articulate enough in my response. You definitely need clear business objectives. I'm arguing against the “bolt-on” mentality that still exists no matter how fluent client and counsel are. I'm sure you can attest to success within a client's company and externally when you're working with someone who's breathing the same air as you. Not just hiring you to plug a hole. The programs and counsel, even with great biz objectives, will only bring a company to a sink or swim point. They have to jump all the way in, believe it, use it an live it – not just throw $ at it. It's hard to visualize I suppose but there are companies doing well not because they trust their counsel but because they're living it. They're using it. It's an honest to god part of their life.

    I agree with you about advertising. It works and I'm looking forward to new ways for consumers to sponsor things they enjoy. Kickstarter and the Put This On blog is a great example of that. I guess I just want to see more functionality, more true value in the space. Not another half-baked microsite that eats up budget.

    I suppose it all stems from all parties settling for less more often than not. Yes, determining factors of time, money, etc. loom large but – to your point – people sort of have the psychology of these tools backwards. They're mistaking ease-of-use for larger reach and designing towards that when, instead (when thresholds are lowered), there is a stronger need for focus. What really matters in those 2 seconds someone is paying attention to you?

  • Jason and Jay(son)– you are both friends of mine, and therefore I know you are both saying the same thing. Social media is a tool, not a panacea, a tactic, not a strategy. Yup. You can't sell anything through social media alone, especially through Twitter. You have to figure out what the correct mix of tools is for each product or service.

    Take off your vest, Jason. You don't need it.

  • Jason and Jay(son)– you are both friends of mine, and therefore I know you are both saying the same thing. Social media is a tool, not a panacea, a tactic, not a strategy. Yup. You can't sell anything through social media alone, especially through Twitter. You have to figure out what the correct mix of tools is for each product or service.

    Take off your vest, Jason. You don't need it.

  • Jason and Jay(son)– you are both friends of mine, and therefore I know you are both saying the same thing. Social media is a tool, not a panacea, a tactic, not a strategy. Yup. You can't sell anything through social media alone, especially through Twitter. You have to figure out what the correct mix of tools is for each product or service.

    Take off your vest, Jason. You don't need it.

  • Great conversation. IMO “social” is a property inherent to – and not a type of – communications and business processes these days. Those that opt to dawdle in the trees (SM shiny objects) rather than be part of the forest ecosystem (part of the collective of business objectives) will likely wind up as firewood as you effectively suggested. Thanks for the great dialog, Smokey.

  • Great conversation. IMO “social” is a property inherent to – and not a type of – communications and business processes these days. Those that opt to dawdle in the trees (SM shiny objects) rather than be part of the forest ecosystem (part of the collective of business objectives) will likely wind up as firewood as you effectively suggested. Thanks for the great dialog, Smokey.

  • Great conversation. IMO “social” is a property inherent to – and not a type of – communications and business processes these days. Those that opt to dawdle in the trees (SM shiny objects) rather than be part of the forest ecosystem (part of the collective of business objectives) will likely wind up as firewood as you effectively suggested. Thanks for the great dialog, Smokey.

  • Great conversation. IMO “social” is a property inherent to – and not a type of – communications and business processes these days. Those that opt to dawdle in the trees (SM shiny objects) rather than be part of the forest ecosystem (part of the collective of business objectives) will likely wind up as firewood as you effectively suggested. Thanks for the great dialog, Smokey.

    • Appreciate the fact you called me something I've never been called as much as the comment. Thanks, Hooner.

  • Good post and spot fucking on. That's why I can't wait for these
    ex-bartenders to stop using “social media”…so you can be the last
    motherfucker standing.

    A

  • Good post and spot fucking on. That's why I can't wait for these
    ex-bartenders to stop using “social media”…so you can be the last
    motherfucker standing.

    A

  • Good post and spot fucking on. That's why I can't wait for these
    ex-bartenders to stop using “social media”…so you can be the last
    motherfucker standing.

    A

  • Funny. Always a wise-ass. Heh.

  • Funny. Always a wise-ass. Heh.

  • Funny. Always a wise-ass. Heh.

  • Funny. Always a wise-ass. Heh.

    • Good post and spot fucking on. That's why I can't wait for these
      ex-bartenders to stop using “social media”…so you can be the last
      motherfucker standing.

      A

  • I'm sure there are. The problem comes when the “consultant” is actually a blogger with the wherewithall to sell their experience as “marketing” when they really have no experience in the latter. Those folks are all about comments and followers and fans and conversation. They don't know the harsh realities of measurable outcomes, return on investment and financial justification for budgetary spend. Some are smart enough to put tow and two together and figure out they can't just blog for people and get away with it and do okay. Others … distract from the bottom line and talk about how many Facebook fans you have.

  • I'm sure there are. The problem comes when the “consultant” is actually a blogger with the wherewithall to sell their experience as “marketing” when they really have no experience in the latter. Those folks are all about comments and followers and fans and conversation. They don't know the harsh realities of measurable outcomes, return on investment and financial justification for budgetary spend. Some are smart enough to put tow and two together and figure out they can't just blog for people and get away with it and do okay. Others … distract from the bottom line and talk about how many Facebook fans you have.

  • I'm sure there are. The problem comes when the “consultant” is actually a blogger with the wherewithall to sell their experience as “marketing” when they really have no experience in the latter. Those folks are all about comments and followers and fans and conversation. They don't know the harsh realities of measurable outcomes, return on investment and financial justification for budgetary spend. Some are smart enough to put tow and two together and figure out they can't just blog for people and get away with it and do okay. Others … distract from the bottom line and talk about how many Facebook fans you have.

  • Awesome post. Are, there really that many social media purists not recommending that their clients make money? I always thought that generating sales were part of the game.

  • Awesome post. Are, there really that many social media purists not recommending that their clients make money? I always thought that generating sales were part of the game.

  • Awesome post. Are, there really that many social media purists not recommending that their clients make money? I always thought that generating sales were part of the game.

  • Awesome post. Are, there really that many social media purists not recommending that their clients make money? I always thought that generating sales were part of the game.

    • I'm sure there are. The problem comes when the “consultant” is actually a blogger with the wherewithall to sell their experience as “marketing” when they really have no experience in the latter. Those folks are all about comments and followers and fans and conversation. They don't know the harsh realities of measurable outcomes, return on investment and financial justification for budgetary spend. Some are smart enough to put tow and two together and figure out they can't just blog for people and get away with it and do okay. Others … distract from the bottom line and talk about how many Facebook fans you have.

  • Interesting prediction, Jesse. Not sure I disagree, either. Thanks!

  • Interesting prediction, Jesse. Not sure I disagree, either. Thanks!

  • Interesting prediction, Jesse. Not sure I disagree, either. Thanks!

  • Nice analogy, Peter. Thanks for sharing.

  • Nice analogy, Peter. Thanks for sharing.

  • Nice analogy, Peter. Thanks for sharing.

  • Certainly will be nice when we do a better job of nailing that down, Kelly. Thanks.

  • Certainly will be nice when we do a better job of nailing that down, Kelly. Thanks.

  • Certainly will be nice when we do a better job of nailing that down, Kelly. Thanks.

  • Nice presentation. Thanks for sharing that!

  • Nice presentation. Thanks for sharing that!

  • Nice presentation. Thanks for sharing that!

  • Thank you for saying so, Patrick. I appreciate the acknowledgment.

  • Thank you for saying so, Patrick. I appreciate the acknowledgment.

  • Thank you for saying so, Patrick. I appreciate the acknowledgment.

  • Thank you for saying so, Patrick. I appreciate the acknowledgment.

  • Thank you for saying so, Patrick. I appreciate the acknowledgment.

  • Love that analogy, Keith. Well said and I completely agree with your point there. Well done.

  • Love that analogy, Keith. Well said and I completely agree with your point there. Well done.

  • Love that analogy, Keith. Well said and I completely agree with your point there. Well done.

  • 100-percent in agreement there Massimo. Thank you for that!

  • 100-percent in agreement there Massimo. Thank you for that!

  • 100-percent in agreement there Massimo. Thank you for that!

  • Good question. The purists seem to be a contradiction of themselves a bit, but then again, the ones I'm referring to probably aren't making any money anyway, so I don't know. And the ones that are making money but are telling businesses they shouldn't or can't won't be for long. Thanks!

  • Good question. The purists seem to be a contradiction of themselves a bit, but then again, the ones I'm referring to probably aren't making any money anyway, so I don't know. And the ones that are making money but are telling businesses they shouldn't or can't won't be for long. Thanks!

  • Good question. The purists seem to be a contradiction of themselves a bit, but then again, the ones I'm referring to probably aren't making any money anyway, so I don't know. And the ones that are making money but are telling businesses they shouldn't or can't won't be for long. Thanks!

  • Thanks, Coree. I think there's a nugget of truth that comes out in your comment: We're ready to accept a sales job if it's presented by someone we trust for a product or service that's relevant to us and our needs. Otherwise, you should know better. Thanks for that. (At least that's what I felt when reading it.)

  • Thanks, Coree. I think there's a nugget of truth that comes out in your comment: We're ready to accept a sales job if it's presented by someone we trust for a product or service that's relevant to us and our needs. Otherwise, you should know better. Thanks for that. (At least that's what I felt when reading it.)

  • Thanks, Coree. I think there's a nugget of truth that comes out in your comment: We're ready to accept a sales job if it's presented by someone we trust for a product or service that's relevant to us and our needs. Otherwise, you should know better. Thanks for that. (At least that's what I felt when reading it.)

  • Thanks for the verification, Eric. It's great to hear that from a business owner rather than from all the social media purists I pissed off today. Heh. Appreciate your continued input. I'm going to do Urbane justice with a post soon!

  • Thanks for the verification, Eric. It's great to hear that from a business owner rather than from all the social media purists I pissed off today. Heh. Appreciate your continued input. I'm going to do Urbane justice with a post soon!

  • Thanks for the verification, Eric. It's great to hear that from a business owner rather than from all the social media purists I pissed off today. Heh. Appreciate your continued input. I'm going to do Urbane justice with a post soon!

  • Eh, I don't see marketers as relentless and ruthless. In fact, good ones are the ones who help you buy rather than make you sell. And social media marketing is being done well every day by a lot of really smart folks. Social media can be a business driver, and needs to be a business driver for companies to justify the time and money spent there, but the balance between honestly participating and providing value to the audience, engaging with them appropriately and driving business is a delicate balance. Thanks, Doug. Don't give up on us marketers just yet.

  • Eh, I don't see marketers as relentless and ruthless. In fact, good ones are the ones who help you buy rather than make you sell. And social media marketing is being done well every day by a lot of really smart folks. Social media can be a business driver, and needs to be a business driver for companies to justify the time and money spent there, but the balance between honestly participating and providing value to the audience, engaging with them appropriately and driving business is a delicate balance. Thanks, Doug. Don't give up on us marketers just yet.

  • Eh, I don't see marketers as relentless and ruthless. In fact, good ones are the ones who help you buy rather than make you sell. And social media marketing is being done well every day by a lot of really smart folks. Social media can be a business driver, and needs to be a business driver for companies to justify the time and money spent there, but the balance between honestly participating and providing value to the audience, engaging with them appropriately and driving business is a delicate balance. Thanks, Doug. Don't give up on us marketers just yet.

  • Bravo, Tim. Thanks for that.

  • Bravo, Tim. Thanks for that.

  • Bravo, Tim. Thanks for that.

  • Spoken by someone who knows this side of the aisle well. Thanks Marc.

  • Spoken by someone who knows this side of the aisle well. Thanks Marc.

  • Spoken by someone who knows this side of the aisle well. Thanks Marc.

  • Excellent points, Jon. I've stated below a few times (excuse the lapse in catching up with responses) that my definition of purist is a bit more severe that most assume. And you're right, there's no black and white here. A balance should be drawn for any business to be successful in the social space. My hope with the discussion is only to emphasize to the social media thinkers and do-ers out there that business needs to drive what you're doing. Conversation for conversation's sake is, as you say, an exercise in narcissism.)

  • Excellent points, Jon. I've stated below a few times (excuse the lapse in catching up with responses) that my definition of purist is a bit more severe that most assume. And you're right, there's no black and white here. A balance should be drawn for any business to be successful in the social space. My hope with the discussion is only to emphasize to the social media thinkers and do-ers out there that business needs to drive what you're doing. Conversation for conversation's sake is, as you say, an exercise in narcissism.)

  • Excellent points, Jon. I've stated below a few times (excuse the lapse in catching up with responses) that my definition of purist is a bit more severe that most assume. And you're right, there's no black and white here. A balance should be drawn for any business to be successful in the social space. My hope with the discussion is only to emphasize to the social media thinkers and do-ers out there that business needs to drive what you're doing. Conversation for conversation's sake is, as you say, an exercise in narcissism.)

  • Well said, Pedro. At the core, we agree on the issue. My post was meant more to strike up what has turned out to be a very passionate conversation. Thanks for adding to it.

  • Well said, Pedro. At the core, we agree on the issue. My post was meant more to strike up what has turned out to be a very passionate conversation. Thanks for adding to it.

  • Well said, Pedro. At the core, we agree on the issue. My post was meant more to strike up what has turned out to be a very passionate conversation. Thanks for adding to it.

  • Great points, Steve. Thanks for chiming in. I don't think anyone will flame you over that. Heh.

  • Great points, Steve. Thanks for chiming in. I don't think anyone will flame you over that. Heh.

  • Great points, Steve. Thanks for chiming in. I don't think anyone will flame you over that. Heh.

  • See my thoughts to rogerharris below. I think we're just seeing purists as two different things. But yes, you're right. With the proper appreciation for the business drivers, even purists can be effective in providing the proper value for social media. Thanks!

  • See my thoughts to rogerharris below. I think we're just seeing purists as two different things. But yes, you're right. With the proper appreciation for the business drivers, even purists can be effective in providing the proper value for social media. Thanks!

  • See my thoughts to rogerharris below. I think we're just seeing purists as two different things. But yes, you're right. With the proper appreciation for the business drivers, even purists can be effective in providing the proper value for social media. Thanks!

  • Don't disagree at all Justin. The point is often made in more dramatic fashion to ensure it's heard. Well said, sir.

  • Don't disagree at all Justin. The point is often made in more dramatic fashion to ensure it's heard. Well said, sir.

  • Don't disagree at all Justin. The point is often made in more dramatic fashion to ensure it's heard. Well said, sir.

  • Thanks Roger. I think we just aren't agreeing on the puritan principles. The real social media purists are anti-ad, anti-call-to-action and say that engaging and conversation are what social media is all about. I say it can be done (though a delicate balance) with both ends of the spectrum covered. You can drive business transactions. You can present buying options. You can capture email addresses, etc., within the context of good social media. And if you don't, you have a much harder time proving you've done a good job with it.

  • Thanks Roger. I think we just aren't agreeing on the puritan principles. The real social media purists are anti-ad, anti-call-to-action and say that engaging and conversation are what social media is all about. I say it can be done (though a delicate balance) with both ends of the spectrum covered. You can drive business transactions. You can present buying options. You can capture email addresses, etc., within the context of good social media. And if you don't, you have a much harder time proving you've done a good job with it.

  • Thanks Roger. I think we just aren't agreeing on the puritan principles. The real social media purists are anti-ad, anti-call-to-action and say that engaging and conversation are what social media is all about. I say it can be done (though a delicate balance) with both ends of the spectrum covered. You can drive business transactions. You can present buying options. You can capture email addresses, etc., within the context of good social media. And if you don't, you have a much harder time proving you've done a good job with it.

  • Thanks John. I don't think a strong social media strategy ignores the value to the other human beings (customers/audiences) that you suggest. And to clarify, I am not arguing we shouldn't be concerned about the conversations and engagement with our audiences. The point of the post is only to say that clear business objectives need to drive what we as social media thinkers and do-ers are recommending to our companies and clients. Otherwise, we aren't serving those clients well. There is a balance and social media success hinges upon how transparent and honest you can be as a company, along with the value you can provide your audiences. But if that value is not translated into profits or cost savings, the brutal honesty of the business world is that you won't be doing social media for that company very much longer.

    I'm also a strong proponent of the idea that most consumers are not in line with the social media puritanism. People DO respond to advertisements. They are persuaded by them. They don't always opt out. The ones they respond to are normally either A) Companies they like and/or B) Those who give them compelling reasons to respond and/or C) Those who present the calls to action in compelling ways.

    My point is to say that in the midst of your conversations and engagements, it's okay to give your audience the option to buy, join or recommend. So long as you're providing the value and engagement they want and/or need, they're opting in to you. They won't mind you asking them to help pay the bills.

    Thanks for the push back and the links.

  • Thanks John. I don't think a strong social media strategy ignores the value to the other human beings (customers/audiences) that you suggest. And to clarify, I am not arguing we shouldn't be concerned about the conversations and engagement with our audiences. The point of the post is only to say that clear business objectives need to drive what we as social media thinkers and do-ers are recommending to our companies and clients. Otherwise, we aren't serving those clients well. There is a balance and social media success hinges upon how transparent and honest you can be as a company, along with the value you can provide your audiences. But if that value is not translated into profits or cost savings, the brutal honesty of the business world is that you won't be doing social media for that company very much longer.

    I'm also a strong proponent of the idea that most consumers are not in line with the social media puritanism. People DO respond to advertisements. They are persuaded by them. They don't always opt out. The ones they respond to are normally either A) Companies they like and/or B) Those who give them compelling reasons to respond and/or C) Those who present the calls to action in compelling ways.

    My point is to say that in the midst of your conversations and engagements, it's okay to give your audience the option to buy, join or recommend. So long as you're providing the value and engagement they want and/or need, they're opting in to you. They won't mind you asking them to help pay the bills.

    Thanks for the push back and the links.

  • Thanks John. I don't think a strong social media strategy ignores the value to the other human beings (customers/audiences) that you suggest. And to clarify, I am not arguing we shouldn't be concerned about the conversations and engagement with our audiences. The point of the post is only to say that clear business objectives need to drive what we as social media thinkers and do-ers are recommending to our companies and clients. Otherwise, we aren't serving those clients well. There is a balance and social media success hinges upon how transparent and honest you can be as a company, along with the value you can provide your audiences. But if that value is not translated into profits or cost savings, the brutal honesty of the business world is that you won't be doing social media for that company very much longer.

    I'm also a strong proponent of the idea that most consumers are not in line with the social media puritanism. People DO respond to advertisements. They are persuaded by them. They don't always opt out. The ones they respond to are normally either A) Companies they like and/or B) Those who give them compelling reasons to respond and/or C) Those who present the calls to action in compelling ways.

    My point is to say that in the midst of your conversations and engagements, it's okay to give your audience the option to buy, join or recommend. So long as you're providing the value and engagement they want and/or need, they're opting in to you. They won't mind you asking them to help pay the bills.

    Thanks for the push back and the links.

  • Thanks Ian. Whether you're using social media to drive profits or reduce costs, you have to have business goals and clear metrics to underline your successes with those goals. Savings/Profits would be interchangeable, but thanks for forcing me to clarify.

  • Thanks Ian. Whether you're using social media to drive profits or reduce costs, you have to have business goals and clear metrics to underline your successes with those goals. Savings/Profits would be interchangeable, but thanks for forcing me to clarify.

  • Thanks Ian. Whether you're using social media to drive profits or reduce costs, you have to have business goals and clear metrics to underline your successes with those goals. Savings/Profits would be interchangeable, but thanks for forcing me to clarify.

  • Thank you, Liz. Appreciate the comment.

  • Thank you, Liz. Appreciate the comment.

  • Thank you, Liz. Appreciate the comment.

  • Thank you, Joseph. And thanks for the other reactions within the comments. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to participate today.

  • Thank you, Joseph. And thanks for the other reactions within the comments. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to participate today.

  • Thank you, Joseph. And thanks for the other reactions within the comments. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to participate today.

  • That's all you got? Heh. Agreed. If only the mix was easy to achieve.

  • That's all you got? Heh. Agreed. If only the mix was easy to achieve.

  • That's all you got? Heh. Agreed. If only the mix was easy to achieve.

  • Thanks, Joseph. Appreciate the comment, nonetheless.

  • Thanks, Joseph. Appreciate the comment, nonetheless.

  • Thanks, Joseph. Appreciate the comment, nonetheless.

  • Gracias!

  • Gracias!

  • Gracias!

  • Thanks a ton for this. The clarity is in the point that a grounding in marketing, public relations, branding, etc., is the anchor point for those who will excel in the space. If all you know is blogging, etc., you're not going to be able to provide the type of expertise brands expect. Sure, there are many than can research and catch up and provide good advice, but having the marketing chops is a BIG plus.

  • Thanks a ton for this. The clarity is in the point that a grounding in marketing, public relations, branding, etc., is the anchor point for those who will excel in the space. If all you know is blogging, etc., you're not going to be able to provide the type of expertise brands expect. Sure, there are many than can research and catch up and provide good advice, but having the marketing chops is a BIG plus.

  • Thanks a ton for this. The clarity is in the point that a grounding in marketing, public relations, branding, etc., is the anchor point for those who will excel in the space. If all you know is blogging, etc., you're not going to be able to provide the type of expertise brands expect. Sure, there are many than can research and catch up and provide good advice, but having the marketing chops is a BIG plus.

  • Great post Jason. I think that in the next 2 years, the term “social media” will dissolve altogether, the same way the term “e-business” did. The latest social networking explosion has opened many business eyes, now it's up to them to see if they can use it to add value to their products and services to get an edge. If it doesn't then it won't fly.

  • Great post Jason. I think that in the next 2 years, the term “social media” will dissolve altogether, the same way the term “e-business” did. The latest social networking explosion has opened many business eyes, now it's up to them to see if they can use it to add value to their products and services to get an edge. If it doesn't then it won't fly.

  • Great post Jason. I think that in the next 2 years, the term “social media” will dissolve altogether, the same way the term “e-business” did. The latest social networking explosion has opened many business eyes, now it's up to them to see if they can use it to add value to their products and services to get an edge. If it doesn't then it won't fly.

  • Great post Jason. I think that in the next 2 years, the term “social media” will dissolve altogether, the same way the term “e-business” did. The latest social networking explosion has opened many business eyes, now it's up to them to see if they can use it to add value to their products and services to get an edge. If it doesn't then it won't fly.

    • Interesting prediction, Jesse. Not sure I disagree, either. Thanks!

  • I think your post ads to the social-media-for-business discussion. For Twitter, I think there is some magical balance of time and tweets between listening and speaking, between empathizing and selling, between attracting and hooking. Where that balance lies no doubt varies per business and per person.

    Social media fishing may never be an exact science, but clearly pure calls to action on the one hand and pure “howdy do's” on the other will not do. Fishing requires bait and a hook; absent one or the other and it ain't fishing.

  • I think your post ads to the social-media-for-business discussion. For Twitter, I think there is some magical balance of time and tweets between listening and speaking, between empathizing and selling, between attracting and hooking. Where that balance lies no doubt varies per business and per person.

    Social media fishing may never be an exact science, but clearly pure calls to action on the one hand and pure “howdy do's” on the other will not do. Fishing requires bait and a hook; absent one or the other and it ain't fishing.

  • I think your post ads to the social-media-for-business discussion. For Twitter, I think there is some magical balance of time and tweets between listening and speaking, between empathizing and selling, between attracting and hooking. Where that balance lies no doubt varies per business and per person.

    Social media fishing may never be an exact science, but clearly pure calls to action on the one hand and pure “howdy do's” on the other will not do. Fishing requires bait and a hook; absent one or the other and it ain't fishing.

  • I think your post ads to the social-media-for-business discussion. For Twitter, I think there is some magical balance of time and tweets between listening and speaking, between empathizing and selling, between attracting and hooking. Where that balance lies no doubt varies per business and per person.

    Social media fishing may never be an exact science, but clearly pure calls to action on the one hand and pure “howdy do's” on the other will not do. Fishing requires bait and a hook; absent one or the other and it ain't fishing.

  • I think your post ads to the social-media-for-business discussion. For Twitter, I think there is some magical balance of time and tweets between listening and speaking, between empathizing and selling, between attracting and hooking. Where that balance lies no doubt varies per business and per person.

    Social media fishing may never be an exact science, but clearly pure calls to action on the one hand and pure “howdy do's” on the other will not do. Fishing requires bait and a hook; absent one or the other and it ain't fishing.

    • Nice analogy, Peter. Thanks for sharing.

    • scramblethis

      Agree w/you, Peter. Balancing communications means meaningful ones. I work for a non-profit (http://www.swallowhillmusic.org), and although being a charity, we always think on the bottom line. Otherwise, we won't be able to continue our services or offer our programs. Our Social Media strategies should help accomplish that ultimate goal.

  • heatherwhaling

    I did happen to be drinking a glass of wine when reading this — and nearly spit it on my computer reading Stuart's comment … and your reply. :)

    But, I agree wholeheartedly with Stuart's point. Excellent post, Jason. This is exactly why you're one of my favorites … and why your blog is one of my “must readers.” Keep up the fantastic work. And, thanks for grounding us all us hippie wannabes in reality!!

    Heather (@prtini)

  • heatherwhaling

    I did happen to be drinking a glass of wine when reading this — and nearly spit it on my computer reading Stuart's comment … and your reply. :)

    But, I agree wholeheartedly with Stuart's point. Excellent post, Jason. This is exactly why you're one of my favorites … and why your blog is one of my “must readers.” Keep up the fantastic work. And, thanks for grounding us all us hippie wannabes in reality!!

    Heather (@prtini)

  • heatherwhaling

    I did happen to be drinking a glass of wine when reading this — and nearly spit it on my computer reading Stuart's comment … and your reply. :)

    But, I agree wholeheartedly with Stuart's point. Excellent post, Jason. This is exactly why you're one of my favorites … and why your blog is one of my “must readers.” Keep up the fantastic work. And, thanks for grounding us all us hippie wannabes in reality!!

    Heather (@prtini)

  • A refreshing perspective. Social media's ROI and how it can be measured really started making sense to me after I started reading this blog: http://metricsman.wordpress.com. I'm looking forward to learning more about it, but I think we're going to have to wait until marketers get over how great social media marketing is and start talking about its metrics.

  • A refreshing perspective. Social media's ROI and how it can be measured really started making sense to me after I started reading this blog: http://metricsman.wordpress.com. I'm looking forward to learning more about it, but I think we're going to have to wait until marketers get over how great social media marketing is and start talking about its metrics.

  • A refreshing perspective. Social media's ROI and how it can be measured really started making sense to me after I started reading this blog: http://metricsman.wordpress.com. I'm looking forward to learning more about it, but I think we're going to have to wait until marketers get over how great social media marketing is and start talking about its metrics.

  • A refreshing perspective. Social media's ROI and how it can be measured really started making sense to me after I started reading this blog: http://metricsman.wordpress.com. I'm looking forward to learning more about it, but I think we're going to have to wait until marketers get over how great social media marketing is and start talking about its metrics.

    • Certainly will be nice when we do a better job of nailing that down, Kelly. Thanks.

  • Pingback: Social Media Time Trap - Sales vs Small Talk | Market Like A Chick()

  • DMPR

    Or to steal a phrase… “converse and convert” (thanks @jaybaer). I tried to get some of this business thinking across in my ghost tweeting presentation a few weeks ago – http://docs.google.com/present/edit?id=0AZDH6sj

  • DMPR

    Or to steal a phrase… “converse and convert” (thanks @jaybaer). I tried to get some of this business thinking across in my ghost tweeting presentation a few weeks ago – http://docs.google.com/present/edit?id=0AZDH6sj

  • DMPR

    Or to steal a phrase… “converse and convert” (thanks @jaybaer). I tried to get some of this business thinking across in my ghost tweeting presentation a few weeks ago – http://docs.google.com/present/edit?id=0AZDH6sj

  • DMPR

    Or to steal a phrase… “converse and convert” (thanks @jaybaer). I tried to get some of this business thinking across in my ghost tweeting presentation a few weeks ago – http://docs.google.com/present/edit?id=0AZDH6sj

    • Nice presentation. Thanks for sharing that!

  • Doug

    I hope you are wrong but I know marketers are relentless and ruthless. I'm so tired of everything being turned into an opportunity to make money. And like all that money touches, Twitter as we know it will be ruined.

  • Great post Jason. Finally! I've come across someone else who's thinking 2011 style instead of 2009! My company has been advocating the same stance that a company has to be driven by sales first and foremost. These companies need sales to survive and no corporate social media approach is going to amount to a hill of beans if it doesn't use this central tenant as its foundation. The social media discussion is still in its infancy but it's refreshing to see someone is thinking about its adolescence and how it will apply to businesses that want to be successful online.

  • Great post Jason. Finally! I've come across someone else who's thinking 2011 style instead of 2009! My company has been advocating the same stance that a company has to be driven by sales first and foremost. These companies need sales to survive and no corporate social media approach is going to amount to a hill of beans if it doesn't use this central tenant as its foundation. The social media discussion is still in its infancy but it's refreshing to see someone is thinking about its adolescence and how it will apply to businesses that want to be successful online.

  • Great post Jason. Finally! I've come across someone else who's thinking 2011 style instead of 2009! My company has been advocating the same stance that a company has to be driven by sales first and foremost. These companies need sales to survive and no corporate social media approach is going to amount to a hill of beans if it doesn't use this central tenant as its foundation. The social media discussion is still in its infancy but it's refreshing to see someone is thinking about its adolescence and how it will apply to businesses that want to be successful online.

  • Great post Jason. Finally! I've come across someone else who's thinking 2011 style instead of 2009! My company has been advocating the same stance that a company has to be driven by sales first and foremost. These companies need sales to survive and no corporate social media approach is going to amount to a hill of beans if it doesn't use this central tenant as its foundation. The social media discussion is still in its infancy but it's refreshing to see someone is thinking about its adolescence and how it will apply to businesses that want to be successful online.

    • Thank you for saying so, Patrick. I appreciate the acknowledgment.

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  • Yes I agree! The conversation has to lead to sales and profits! There are many conversations you can have to do this. Cast the net wide start the conversation and drive it to a sales conversation.

    Lets say you own a small grocery store locally do something like this “Hey tweet me your list and I will have items in a cart waiting for you, when you get here” Guess what that customer has more time to shop in your store and put more things in their basket, which leads to more purchased, which leads to increase bottom-line all based on the conversation the grocery store created on twitter (or any other social mechanism). Trust me it is the little conversations that are going to lead to larger and larger purchases online or in a store….make time not such a constraint by using social communicative tools and people will spend more time buying & investing

    what do you think?

  • Yes I agree! The conversation has to lead to sales and profits! There are many conversations you can have to do this. Cast the net wide start the conversation and drive it to a sales conversation.

    Lets say you own a small grocery store locally do something like this “Hey tweet me your list and I will have items in a cart waiting for you, when you get here” Guess what that customer has more time to shop in your store and put more things in their basket, which leads to more purchased, which leads to increase bottom-line all based on the conversation the grocery store created on twitter (or any other social mechanism). Trust me it is the little conversations that are going to lead to larger and larger purchases online or in a store….make time not such a constraint by using social communicative tools and people will spend more time buying & investing

    what do you think?

  • Yes I agree! The conversation has to lead to sales and profits! There are many conversations you can have to do this. Cast the net wide start the conversation and drive it to a sales conversation.

    Lets say you own a small grocery store locally do something like this “Hey tweet me your list and I will have items in a cart waiting for you, when you get here” Guess what that customer has more time to shop in your store and put more things in their basket, which leads to more purchased, which leads to increase bottom-line all based on the conversation the grocery store created on twitter (or any other social mechanism). Trust me it is the little conversations that are going to lead to larger and larger purchases online or in a store….make time not such a constraint by using social communicative tools and people will spend more time buying & investing

    what do you think?

  • Yes I agree! The conversation has to lead to sales and profits! There are many conversations you can have to do this. Cast the net wide start the conversation and drive it to a sales conversation.

    Lets say you own a small grocery store locally do something like this “Hey tweet me your list and I will have items in a cart waiting for you, when you get here” Guess what that customer has more time to shop in your store and put more things in their basket, which leads to more purchased, which leads to increase bottom-line all based on the conversation the grocery store created on twitter (or any other social mechanism). Trust me it is the little conversations that are going to lead to larger and larger purchases online or in a store….make time not such a constraint by using social communicative tools and people will spend more time buying & investing

    what do you think?

    • Love that analogy, Keith. Well said and I completely agree with your point there. Well done.

    • I'm not tweeting anything that looks like a transaction until Twitter is secure and reliable.

      The idea of committing commerce of any kind through wireless networks and a non-encrypted server is laughable. Add to this Twitter's disastrous messaging system, which has no means of spam or phishing control, no filters, no way to archive or organize DMs, and all the usability of a dialup BBS mailbox, and the idea of TwiCommerce seems pretty unlikely.

      Not ranting on your idea — just Twitter's current inability to support it.

      • I certainly wouldn't push real transaction over Twitter either but
        driving people to your own site for that from Twitter is smart and
        trackable.

        And I'd be remiss if I didn't tell you that Backupify.com backs up all
        tweets, including DMs as well as several other cloud based services
        (Facebook, Gmail, Google Docs, Flickr, an more.) I am involved with
        the company and am happy to answer more questions.

  • Excellent post. I too am a purist. I too subscribe to the power of conversations. But I'm also a pragmatist who recognizes that conversations initiated without a commercial or brand strategy will do little for a brand or a bottom line. One caveat however, social networks do not tolerate manipulation. Transparance remains critically important.

  • Excellent post. I too am a purist. I too subscribe to the power of conversations. But I'm also a pragmatist who recognizes that conversations initiated without a commercial or brand strategy will do little for a brand or a bottom line. One caveat however, social networks do not tolerate manipulation. Transparance remains critically important.

  • Excellent post. I too am a purist. I too subscribe to the power of conversations. But I'm also a pragmatist who recognizes that conversations initiated without a commercial or brand strategy will do little for a brand or a bottom line. One caveat however, social networks do not tolerate manipulation. Transparance remains critically important.

  • Excellent post. I too am a purist. I too subscribe to the power of conversations. But I'm also a pragmatist who recognizes that conversations initiated without a commercial or brand strategy will do little for a brand or a bottom line. One caveat however, social networks do not tolerate manipulation. Transparance remains critically important.

    • 100-percent in agreement there Massimo. Thank you for that!

  • Have to measure outcomes. At the base level social media, from a business perspective, must be aimed at achieving core business objectives. The primary purpose of a business is to get and keep customers. That has and never will change. Doing this generates revenue, creates jobs and should deliver value to the customer.

    How the business uses social media is entirely up to them. They can use it to prospect, to brand, to educate/support customers, to position themselves etc. The success of their efforts will be measured based on whether their followers buy from them or affect a sale in some way shape or form.

    Every organization depends on net income. In fact aren't the social media purists generating money based on their social media success?

  • Have to measure outcomes. At the base level social media, from a business perspective, must be aimed at achieving core business objectives. The primary purpose of a business is to get and keep customers. That has and never will change. Doing this generates revenue, creates jobs and should deliver value to the customer.

    How the business uses social media is entirely up to them. They can use it to prospect, to brand, to educate/support customers, to position themselves etc. The success of their efforts will be measured based on whether their followers buy from them or affect a sale in some way shape or form.

    Every organization depends on net income. In fact aren't the social media purists generating money based on their social media success?

  • Have to measure outcomes. At the base level social media, from a business perspective, must be aimed at achieving core business objectives. The primary purpose of a business is to get and keep customers. That has and never will change. Doing this generates revenue, creates jobs and should deliver value to the customer.

    How the business uses social media is entirely up to them. They can use it to prospect, to brand, to educate/support customers, to position themselves etc. The success of their efforts will be measured based on whether their followers buy from them or affect a sale in some way shape or form.

    Every organization depends on net income. In fact aren't the social media purists generating money based on their social media success?

  • Have to measure outcomes. At the base level social media, from a business perspective, must be aimed at achieving core business objectives. The primary purpose of a business is to get and keep customers. That has and never will change. Doing this generates revenue, creates jobs and should deliver value to the customer.

    How the business uses social media is entirely up to them. They can use it to prospect, to brand, to educate/support customers, to position themselves etc. The success of their efforts will be measured based on whether their followers buy from them or affect a sale in some way shape or form.

    Every organization depends on net income. In fact aren't the social media purists generating money based on their social media success?

    • Good question. The purists seem to be a contradiction of themselves a bit, but then again, the ones I'm referring to probably aren't making any money anyway, so I don't know. And the ones that are making money but are telling businesses they shouldn't or can't won't be for long. Thanks!

  • Right on, Jason. I can see where you're coming from with this post. It's not like social media marketing breathes and exists only on engagement…you have to actually market something.

    I think it's a growing up process for those learning how to market in the new age. For so many years the traditional salesperson has used pushy close techniques to trick their customers into buying. When they hit the social scene they first had to learn we're hip to that whole game… and in fact started using social media to get away from their wiles. Social media has not welcomed those types of salespeople and had to be very vocal about it to weed them out.

    Now that the basics of offering value, listening & engaging are emphatically clear let's assume we've got it and move on. Taking time to communicate with your community is important but eventually you need to move beyond small talk and ask for the sale.

  • Right on, Jason. I can see where you're coming from with this post. It's not like social media marketing breathes and exists only on engagement…you have to actually market something.

    I think it's a growing up process for those learning how to market in the new age. For so many years the traditional salesperson has used pushy close techniques to trick their customers into buying. When they hit the social scene they first had to learn we're hip to that whole game… and in fact started using social media to get away from their wiles. Social media has not welcomed those types of salespeople and had to be very vocal about it to weed them out.

    Now that the basics of offering value, listening & engaging are emphatically clear let's assume we've got it and move on. Taking time to communicate with your community is important but eventually you need to move beyond small talk and ask for the sale.

  • Right on, Jason. I can see where you're coming from with this post. It's not like social media marketing breathes and exists only on engagement…you have to actually market something.

    I think it's a growing up process for those learning how to market in the new age. For so many years the traditional salesperson has used pushy close techniques to trick their customers into buying. When they hit the social scene they first had to learn we're hip to that whole game… and in fact started using social media to get away from their wiles. Social media has not welcomed those types of salespeople and had to be very vocal about it to weed them out.

    Now that the basics of offering value, listening & engaging are emphatically clear let's assume we've got it and move on. Taking time to communicate with your community is important but eventually you need to move beyond small talk and ask for the sale.

  • Right on, Jason. I can see where you're coming from with this post. It's not like social media marketing breathes and exists only on engagement…you have to actually market something.

    I think it's a growing up process for those learning how to market in the new age. For so many years the traditional salesperson has used pushy close techniques to trick their customers into buying. When they hit the social scene they first had to learn we're hip to that whole game… and in fact started using social media to get away from their wiles. Social media has not welcomed those types of salespeople and had to be very vocal about it to weed them out.

    Now that the basics of offering value, listening & engaging are emphatically clear let's assume we've got it and move on. Taking time to communicate with your community is important but eventually you need to move beyond small talk and ask for the sale.

    • Thanks, Coree. I think there's a nugget of truth that comes out in your comment: We're ready to accept a sales job if it's presented by someone we trust for a product or service that's relevant to us and our needs. Otherwise, you should know better. Thanks for that. (At least that's what I felt when reading it.)

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  • UrbaneWay

    Jason,
    We have passionately embraced Social Media Marketing in lieu of traditional marketing to rent our apartments in SE MI. And, it has worked very well for us, and once we started a Community Blog, it really took off for us.

    But, Make no mistake, the ONLY reason we are doing any Social Media is to Rent More Apartments, period. Any other reason would just be a hobby. That is a little tough for folks to swallow, but it is called business.

    I am proud of our results from Social Media Marketing at Urbane Apartments, they are stunning. Our Community Blog has nothing to do with our apartments, but has driven us more year over year rentals by a significant amount. But when you put it so bluntly, the Purists get pretty chocked up.

  • UrbaneWay

    Jason,
    We have passionately embraced Social Media Marketing in lieu of traditional marketing to rent our apartments in SE MI. And, it has worked very well for us, and once we started a Community Blog, it really took off for us.

    But, Make no mistake, the ONLY reason we are doing any Social Media is to Rent More Apartments, period. Any other reason would just be a hobby. That is a little tough for folks to swallow, but it is called business.

    I am proud of our results from Social Media Marketing at Urbane Apartments, they are stunning. Our Community Blog has nothing to do with our apartments, but has driven us more year over year rentals by a significant amount. But when you put it so bluntly, the Purists get pretty chocked up.

  • UrbaneWay

    Jason,
    We have passionately embraced Social Media Marketing in lieu of traditional marketing to rent our apartments in SE MI. And, it has worked very well for us, and once we started a Community Blog, it really took off for us.

    But, Make no mistake, the ONLY reason we are doing any Social Media is to Rent More Apartments, period. Any other reason would just be a hobby. That is a little tough for folks to swallow, but it is called business.

    I am proud of our results from Social Media Marketing at Urbane Apartments, they are stunning. Our Community Blog has nothing to do with our apartments, but has driven us more year over year rentals by a significant amount. But when you put it so bluntly, the Purists get pretty chocked up.

  • UrbaneWay

    Jason,
    We have passionately embraced Social Media Marketing in lieu of traditional marketing to rent our apartments in SE MI. And, it has worked very well for us, and once we started a Community Blog, it really took off for us.

    But, Make no mistake, the ONLY reason we are doing any Social Media is to Rent More Apartments, period. Any other reason would just be a hobby. That is a little tough for folks to swallow, but it is called business.

    I am proud of our results from Social Media Marketing at Urbane Apartments, they are stunning. Our Community Blog has nothing to do with our apartments, but has driven us more year over year rentals by a significant amount. But when you put it so bluntly, the Purists get pretty chocked up.

    • Thanks for the verification, Eric. It's great to hear that from a business owner rather than from all the social media purists I pissed off today. Heh. Appreciate your continued input. I'm going to do Urbane justice with a post soon!

  • Doug

    I hope you are wrong but I know marketers are relentless and ruthless. I'm so tired of everything being turned into an opportunity to make money. And like all that money touches, Twitter as we know it will be ruined.

  • Doug

    I hope you are wrong but I know marketers are relentless and ruthless. I'm so tired of everything being turned into an opportunity to make money. And like all that money touches, Twitter as we know it will be ruined.

  • Doug

    I hope you are wrong but I know marketers are relentless and ruthless. I'm so tired of everything being turned into an opportunity to make money. And like all that money touches, Twitter as we know it will be ruined.

  • Doug

    I hope you are wrong but I know marketers are relentless and ruthless. I'm so tired of everything being turned into an opportunity to make money. And like all that money touches, Twitter as we know it will be ruined.

    • Eh, I don't see marketers as relentless and ruthless. In fact, good ones are the ones who help you buy rather than make you sell. And social media marketing is being done well every day by a lot of really smart folks. Social media can be a business driver, and needs to be a business driver for companies to justify the time and money spent there, but the balance between honestly participating and providing value to the audience, engaging with them appropriately and driving business is a delicate balance. Thanks, Doug. Don't give up on us marketers just yet.

  • Great post Jason! Don't get it twisted folks…the black-and-white approach is appropriate to argue a position.

    The reality is social media must be social to work with the human touchy-feely side of communication…otherwise it's back to a 'banner advertising' type of approach and we all know how that's gone.

    It's possible to find a happy medium that allows for both relevant and valuable contributions mixed in with an agreement that 'we are gonna try to sell you too.' I accept that type of relationship because it's no different than going to lunch or drinks with a salesperson.

  • Great post Jason! Don't get it twisted folks…the black-and-white approach is appropriate to argue a position.

    The reality is social media must be social to work with the human touchy-feely side of communication…otherwise it's back to a 'banner advertising' type of approach and we all know how that's gone.

    It's possible to find a happy medium that allows for both relevant and valuable contributions mixed in with an agreement that 'we are gonna try to sell you too.' I accept that type of relationship because it's no different than going to lunch or drinks with a salesperson.

  • Great post Jason! Don't get it twisted folks…the black-and-white approach is appropriate to argue a position.

    The reality is social media must be social to work with the human touchy-feely side of communication…otherwise it's back to a 'banner advertising' type of approach and we all know how that's gone.

    It's possible to find a happy medium that allows for both relevant and valuable contributions mixed in with an agreement that 'we are gonna try to sell you too.' I accept that type of relationship because it's no different than going to lunch or drinks with a salesperson.

  • Great post Jason! Don't get it twisted folks…the black-and-white approach is appropriate to argue a position.

    The reality is social media must be social to work with the human touchy-feely side of communication…otherwise it's back to a 'banner advertising' type of approach and we all know how that's gone.

    It's possible to find a happy medium that allows for both relevant and valuable contributions mixed in with an agreement that 'we are gonna try to sell you too.' I get that relationship because it's no different than going to lunch or drinks with a salesperson.

  • The purists in me will last, it just won't get me many paid gigs, as I have found out the hard way. I don't won't to discount the need or the importance of creating relationships from conversations but a lot of companies need to stick their tongues down your throat on the first date. I wanna thank Aaron (Strout) for that. But short of doing that on date one, courtship is in small demand right now when it comes to company and customer. Yet courtship is the essence of social media and there's the rub. Marketers and consultants alike need to understand, and I know this for a fact, and I think Jason is seeing it as well, thus his post, that companies don't have the luxury of pursuing social media from a purists standpoint. They might like to, they just can't afford to.

    The last thing they really want to see as well, is to sit through another deck on how great and transformative social media is-they get that.. show them how you're going to make them money with social media…in 3 months.

  • The purists in me will last, it just won't get me many paid gigs, as I have found out the hard way. I don't won't to discount the need or the importance of creating relationships from conversations but a lot of companies need to stick their tongues down your throat on the first date. I wanna thank Aaron (Strout) for that. But short of doing that on date one, courtship is in small demand right now when it comes to company and customer. Yet courtship is the essence of social media and there's the rub. Marketers and consultants alike need to understand, and I know this for a fact, and I think Jason is seeing it as well, thus his post, that companies don't have the luxury of pursuing social media from a purists standpoint. They might like to, they just can't afford to.

    The last thing they really want to see as well, is to sit through another deck on how great and transformative social media is-they get that.. show them how you're going to make them money with social media…in 3 months.

  • The purists in me will last, it just won't get me many paid gigs, as I have found out the hard way. I don't won't to discount the need or the importance of creating relationships from conversations but a lot of companies need to stick their tongues down your throat on the first date. I wanna thank Aaron (Strout) for that. But short of doing that on date one, courtship is in small demand right now when it comes to company and customer. Yet courtship is the essence of social media and there's the rub. Marketers and consultants alike need to understand, and I know this for a fact, and I think Jason is seeing it as well, thus his post, that companies don't have the luxury of pursuing social media from a purists standpoint. They might like to, they just can't afford to.

    The last thing they really want to see as well, is to sit through another deck on how great and transformative social media is-they get that.. show them how you're going to make them money with social media…in 3 months.

  • The purists in me will last, it just won't get me many paid gigs, as I have found out the hard way. I don't won't to discount the need or the importance of creating relationships from conversations but a lot of companies need to stick their tongues down your throat on the first date. I wanna thank Aaron (Strout) for that. But short of doing that on date one, courtship is in small demand right now when it comes to company and customer. Yet courtship is the essence of social media and there's the rub. Marketers and consultants alike need to understand, and I know this for a fact, and I think Jason is seeing it as well, thus his post, that companies don't have the luxury of pursuing social media from a purists standpoint. They might like to, they just can't afford to.

    The last thing they really want to see as well, is sit through another deck on how great and transformative social media is-they get that.. show them how you're going to make them money with social media…in 3 months.

    • Spoken by someone who knows this side of the aisle well. Thanks Marc.

  • I agree with the general principles of your article, but I have a few reservations. While you're right about the necessity of purpose-driven social media programs (otherwise it's just an exercise in narcissism at a corporate level), I think you're being a little too black-and-white with your seperation of the community into 'purists' and business driven users. As soon as a company opens up an account on a social media platform the line between business and personal becomes a little bit blurred. The more a company interacts on that medium, the more the social media system forces the corporate user to tweek their approach and interact as an individual rather than a corporate entity. At this point what, exactly, is a purist? Does the fact that a company is using a branded account make them business driven, if only because it gets the company name a bit more exposure?

  • I agree with the general principles of your article, but I have a few reservations. While you're right about the necessity of purpose-driven social media programs (otherwise it's just an exercise in narcissism at a corporate level), I think you're being a little too black-and-white with your seperation of the community into 'purists' and business driven users. As soon as a company opens up an account on a social media platform the line between business and personal becomes a little bit blurred. The more a company interacts on that medium, the more the social media system forces the corporate user to tweek their approach and interact as an individual rather than a corporate entity. At this point what, exactly, is a purist? Does the fact that a company is using a branded account make them business driven, if only because it gets the company name a bit more exposure?

  • I agree with the general principles of your article, but I have a few reservations. While you're right about the necessity of purpose-driven social media programs (otherwise it's just an exercise in narcissism at a corporate level), I think you're being a little too black-and-white with your seperation of the community into 'purists' and business driven users. As soon as a company opens up an account on a social media platform the line between business and personal becomes a little bit blurred. The more a company interacts on that medium, the more the social media system forces the corporate user to tweek their approach and interact as an individual rather than a corporate entity. At this point what, exactly, is a purist? Does the fact that a company is using a branded account make them business driven, if only because it gets the company name a bit more exposure?

  • I agree with the general principles of your article, but I have a few reservations. While you're right about the necessity of purpose-driven social media programs (otherwise it's just an exercise in narcissism at a corporate level), I think you're being a little too black-and-white with your seperation of the community into 'purists' and business driven users. As soon as a company opens up an account on a social media platform the line between business and personal becomes a little bit blurred. The more a company interacts on that medium, the more the social media system forces the corporate user to tweek their approach and interact as an individual rather than a corporate entity. At this point what, exactly, is a purist? Does the fact that a company is using a branded account make them business driven, if only because it gets the company name a bit more exposure?

    • Excellent points, Jon. I've stated below a few times (excuse the lapse in catching up with responses) that my definition of purist is a bit more severe that most assume. And you're right, there's no black and white here. A balance should be drawn for any business to be successful in the social space. My hope with the discussion is only to emphasize to the social media thinkers and do-ers out there that business needs to drive what you're doing. Conversation for conversation's sake is, as you say, an exercise in narcissism.)

  • kellyrusk

    Jason, this is a great post and I definitely agree with you, but who says a purist doesn't want/know how to make money with social media?

    I think the best in the biz are doing things like you mentioned:

    “Make your company blog drive search results to the keywords you want to win. Present calls to action that lead your Facebook fans to buy your product. Entice Twitter followers to subscribe to your e-mail newsletter where you can present similar calls to action for purchase”

    However, do so in a way that's not just shouting at a list of 'followers' who aren't engaged. All my experience has been with relatively unknown startups with no brand recognition or trust established, so essentially what I do is use conversations and social networking to build that up until we reach a point when it's safe to say “buy now!' and people actually do. It's all that fluffy stuff that brings you to that point.

    So I think you *can* be a purist and make money via social media and many are doing so successfully (yourself included).

  • Your post is clever and well-written. It is a call to focus in waht companies need: results.
    But you forget something essential: no company will get results from social media if before has not built a good reputation as a responsible company that produces good products/services, drives benefits for shareholders or owners and makes it as good citizen, All the examles you put are from well reputated companies.
    So, the think is not that social media by its own will drive sales and benefits, it is a compelling strategy in the market that permits a company be succesful. In the future, the difference between participating or not in conversations will be aboyt credibililty on what a given company sells, so, better adopt an integrated sustainble strategy and include social media among your ways to learn, share and respond to your customer needs.

  • Your post is clever and well-written. It is a call to focus in waht companies need: results.
    But you forget something essential: no company will get results from social media if before has not built a good reputation as a responsible company that produces good products/services, drives benefits for shareholders or owners and makes it as good citizen, All the examles you put are from well reputated companies.
    So, the think is not that social media by its own will drive sales and benefits, it is a compelling strategy in the market that permits a company be succesful. In the future, the difference between participating or not in conversations will be aboyt credibililty on what a given company sells, so, better adopt an integrated sustainble strategy and include social media among your ways to learn, share and respond to your customer needs.

  • Your post is clever and well-written. It is a call to focus in waht companies need: results.
    But you forget something essential: no company will get results from social media if before has not built a good reputation as a responsible company that produces good products/services, drives benefits for shareholders or owners and makes it as good citizen, All the examles you put are from well reputated companies.
    So, the think is not that social media by its own will drive sales and benefits, it is a compelling strategy in the market that permits a company be succesful. In the future, the difference between participating or not in conversations will be aboyt credibililty on what a given company sells, so, better adopt an integrated sustainble strategy and include social media among your ways to learn, share and respond to your customer needs.

  • Your post is clever and well-written. It is a call to focus in waht companies need: results.
    But you forget something essential: no company will get results from social media if before has not built a good reputation as a responsible company that produces good products/services, drives benefits for shareholders or owners and makes it as good citizen, All the examles you put are from well reputated companies.
    So, the think is not that social media by its own will drive sales and benefits, it is a compelling strategy in the market that permits a company be succesful. In the future, the difference between participating or not in conversations will be aboyt credibililty on what a given company sells, so, better adopt an integrated sustainble strategy and include social media among your ways to learn, share and respond to your customer needs.

    • Well said, Pedro. At the core, we agree on the issue. My post was meant more to strike up what has turned out to be a very passionate conversation. Thanks for adding to it.

  • Jason, this is a great post and I definitely agree with you, but who says a purist doesn't want/know how to make money with social media?

    I think the best in the biz are doing things like you mentioned:

    “Make your company blog drive search results to the keywords you want to win. Present calls to action that lead your Facebook fans to buy your product. Entice Twitter followers to subscribe to your e-mail newsletter where you can present similar calls to action for purchase”

    However, do so in a way that's not just shouting at a list of 'followers' who aren't engaged. All my experience has been with relatively unknown startups with no brand recognition or trust established, so essentially what I do is use conversations and social networking to build that up until we reach a point when it's safe to say “buy now!' and people actually do. It's all that fluffy stuff that brings you to that point.

    So I think you *can* be a purist and make money via social media and many are doing so successfully (yourself included).

  • As seems to be the general opinion, I don't really think its either or (Great, now I will have BOTH sides flaming me!) but more a matter of striking some reasonable balance. If all you do is tweet thinly disguised ads you soon become just background noise that no one reads. If you never sell anything, you won't be around long. If you send out 75% of your tweets/posts as informational-social-entertaining then the other 25% will get read. And maybe acted on.

  • Jason, this is a great post and I definitely agree with you, but who says a purist doesn't want/know how to make money with social media?

    I think the best in the biz are doing things like you mentioned:

    “Make your company blog drive search results to the keywords you want to win. Present calls to action that lead your Facebook fans to buy your product. Entice Twitter followers to subscribe to your e-mail newsletter where you can present similar calls to action for purchase”

    However, do so in a way that's not just shouting at a list of 'followers' who aren't engaged. All my experience has been with relatively unknown startups with no brand recognition or trust established, so essentially what I do is use conversations and social networking to build that up until we reach a point when it's safe to say “buy now!' and people actually do. It's all that fluffy stuff that brings you to that point.

    So I think you *can* be a purist and make money via social media and many are doing so successfully (yourself included).

  • As seems to be the general opinion, I don't really think its either or (Great, now I will have BOTH sides flaming me!) but more a matter of striking some reasonable balance. If all you do is tweet thinly disguised ads you soon become just background noise that no one reads. If you never sell anything, you won't be around long. If you send out 75% of your tweets/posts as informational-social-entertaining then the other 25% will get read. And maybe acted on.

  • Jason, this is a great post and I definitely agree with you, but who says a purist doesn't want/know how to make money with social media?

    I think the best in the biz are doing things like you mentioned:

    “Make your company blog drive search results to the keywords you want to win. Present calls to action that lead your Facebook fans to buy your product. Entice Twitter followers to subscribe to your e-mail newsletter where you can present similar calls to action for purchase”

    However, do so in a way that's not just shouting at a list of 'followers' who aren't engaged. All my experience has been with relatively unknown startups with no brand recognition or trust established, so essentially what I do is use conversations and social networking to build that up until we reach a point when it's safe to say “buy now!' and people actually do. It's all that fluffy stuff that brings you to that point.

    So I think you *can* be a purist and make money via social media and many are doing so successfully (yourself included).

  • As seems to be the general opinion, I don't really think its either or (Great, now I will have BOTH sides flaming me!) but more a matter of striking some reasonable balance. If all you do is tweet thinly disguised ads you soon become just background noise that no one reads. If you never sell anything, you won't be around long. If you send out 75% of your tweets/posts as informational-social-entertaining then the other 25% will get read. And maybe acted on.

  • Jason, this is a great post and I definitely agree with you, but who says a purist doesn't want/know how to make money with social media?

    I think the best in the biz are doing things like you mentioned:

    “Make your company blog drive search results to the keywords you want to win. Present calls to action that lead your Facebook fans to buy your product. Entice Twitter followers to subscribe to your e-mail newsletter where you can present similar calls to action for purchase”

    However, do so in a way that's not just shouting at a list of 'followers' who aren't engaged. All my experience has been with relatively unknown startups with no brand recognition or trust established, so essentially what I do is use conversations and social networking to build that up until we reach a point when it's safe to say “buy now!' and people actually do. It's all that fluffy stuff that brings you to that point.

    So I think you *can* be a purist and make money via social media and many are doing so successfully (yourself included).

    • See my thoughts to rogerharris below. I think we're just seeing purists as two different things. But yes, you're right. With the proper appreciation for the business drivers, even purists can be effective in providing the proper value for social media. Thanks!

  • As seems to be the general opinion, I don't really think its either or (Great, now I will have BOTH sides flaming me!) but more a matter of striking some reasonable balance. If all you do is tweet thinly disguised ads you soon become just background noise that no one reads. If you never sell anything, you won't be around long. If you send out 75% of your tweets/posts as informational-social-entertaining then the other 25% will get read. And maybe acted on.

    • Great points, Steve. Thanks for chiming in. I don't think anyone will flame you over that. Heh.

  • Killer post and I do think your argument has legs to stand on.

    However, the way I see it is there is no one or the other. Needs to be a balance of building relationships and selling. A sale needs both in order to become a sale right… No one buys from people they don't know, like, and trust right.

    So you gotta do the wholesome conversation thing and then you gotta close 'em too.

  • Killer post and I do think your argument has legs to stand on.

    However, the way I see it is there is no one or the other. Needs to be a balance of building relationships and selling. A sale needs both in order to become a sale right… No one buys from people they don't know, like, and trust right.

    So you gotta do the wholesome conversation thing and then you gotta close 'em too.

  • Killer post and I do think your argument has legs to stand on.

    However, the way I see it is there is no one or the other. Needs to be a balance of building relationships and selling. A sale needs both in order to become a sale right… No one buys from people they don't know, like, and trust right.

    So you gotta do the wholesome conversation thing and then you gotta close 'em too.

  • Killer post and I do think your argument has legs to stand on.

    However, the way I see it is there is no one or the other. Needs to be a balance of building relationships and selling. A sale needs both in order to become a sale right… No one buys from people they don't know, like, and trust right.

    So you gotta do the wholesome conversation thing and then you gotta close 'em too.

    • Don't disagree at all Justin. The point is often made in more dramatic fashion to ensure it's heard. Well said, sir.

  • Jay–I agree that these assets (and they truly are assets once you've built a relevant & sizable following on any of the social media properties) take time to develop (at a cost) and should be tracked back to a success metric or it's a wasted effort.

    Some potential metrics to monitor and analyze could include: web visits, leads generated/captured, sales converted, mentions to others (WOM), repeat purchases, brand recognition/recall, reduction in traditional ad costs, market share, up-sells, cross-sells, foot traffic (if it's a physical location), etc.

    The same things you'd measure with a traditional ad campaign can be measured with social media . . . it may take a little extra thinking on the front end to figure out exactly how you can measure what's important and how success will be determined.

    Measurement has been the big “but” with social media . . . supposedly you “can't measure it accurately” to which I call BS! There at least ten metrics outlined in this comment alone that can be measured, and that's just off the top of my head. There are undoubtedly more that could be added to the list, and your point is valid–measurement needs to be included in the equation or why bother?

  • Jay–I agree that these assets (and they truly are assets once you've built a relevant & sizable following on any of the social media properties) take time to develop (at a cost) and should be tracked back to a success metric or it's a wasted effort.

    Some potential metrics to monitor and analyze could include: web visits, leads generated/captured, sales converted, mentions to others (WOM), repeat purchases, brand recognition/recall, reduction in traditional ad costs, market share, up-sells, cross-sells, foot traffic (if it's a physical location), etc.

    The same things you'd measure with a traditional ad campaign can be measured with social media . . . it may take a little extra thinking on the front end to figure out exactly how you can measure what's important and how success will be determined.

    Measurement has been the big “but” with social media . . . supposedly you “can't measure it accurately” to which I call BS! There at least ten metrics outlined in this comment alone that can be measured, and that's just off the top of my head. There are undoubtedly more that could be added to the list, and your point is valid–measurement needs to be included in the equation or why bother?

  • Jay–I agree that these assets (and they truly are assets once you've built a relevant & sizable following on any of the social media properties) take time to develop (at a cost) and should be tracked back to a success metric or it's a wasted effort.

    Some potential metrics to monitor and analyze could include: web visits, leads generated/captured, sales converted, mentions to others (WOM), repeat purchases, brand recognition/recall, reduction in traditional ad costs, market share, up-sells, cross-sells, foot traffic (if it's a physical location), etc.

    The same things you'd measure with a traditional ad campaign can be measured with social media . . . it may take a little extra thinking on the front end to figure out exactly how you can measure what's important and how success will be determined.

    Measurement has been the big “but” with social media . . . supposedly you “can't measure it accurately” to which I call BS! There at least ten metrics outlined in this comment alone that can be measured, and that's just off the top of my head. There are undoubtedly more that could be added to the list, and your point is valid–measurement needs to be included in the equation or why bother?

  • rogerharris

    A well-written post Jason. I am not sure you are saying anything new, though. Social media consultants have long emphasized the need to get ROI from social media activities. This is one reason recent development of social media tools and applications has focused on measurement and metrics. How DO you calculate a return from intangibles such as a conversation? But this is a problem marketers have long wrestled with. Unless you use tracking codes you can't be sure ANY engagement results in a sale. Social media offers a cheaper, faster way to engage directly with targeted audience than traditional media. Hence it's tremendous appeal to marketers, but to say “purists won't last” is, IMO, just missing the point. Marketers need to adhere to best principals to facilitate the desired social activity while at the same time measuring responses to ensure ROI. If things aren't working, then a change of tactics is warranted, but the best practice principles (purism?) will remain.

  • rogerharris

    A well-written post Jason. I am not sure you are saying anything new, though. Social media consultants have long emphasized the need to get ROI from social media activities. This is one reason recent development of social media tools and applications has focused on measurement and metrics. How DO you calculate a return from intangibles such as a conversation? But this is a problem marketers have long wrestled with. Unless you use tracking codes you can't be sure ANY engagement results in a sale. Social media offers a cheaper, faster way to engage directly with targeted audience than traditional media. Hence it's tremendous appeal to marketers, but to say “purists won't last” is, IMO, just missing the point. Marketers need to adhere to best principals to facilitate the desired social activity while at the same time measuring responses to ensure ROI. If things aren't working, then a change of tactics is warranted, but the best practice principles (purism?) will remain.

  • rogerharris

    A well-written post Jason. I am not sure you are saying anything new, though. Social media consultants have long emphasized the need to get ROI from social media activities. This is one reason recent development of social media tools and applications has focused on measurement and metrics. How DO you calculate a return from intangibles such as a conversation? But this is a problem marketers have long wrestled with. Unless you use tracking codes you can't be sure ANY engagement results in a sale. Social media offers a cheaper, faster way to engage directly with targeted audience than traditional media. Hence it's tremendous appeal to marketers, but to say “purists won't last” is, IMO, just missing the point. Marketers need to adhere to best principals to facilitate the desired social activity while at the same time measuring responses to ensure ROI. If things aren't working, then a change of tactics is warranted, but the best practice principles (purism?) will remain.

  • rogerharris

    A well-written post Jason. I am not sure you are saying anything new, though. Social media consultants have long emphasized the need to get ROI from social media activities. This is one reason recent development of social media tools and applications has focused on measurement and metrics. How DO you calculate a return from intangibles such as a conversation? But this is a problem marketers have long wrestled with. Unless you use tracking codes you can't be sure ANY engagement results in a sale. Social media offers a cheaper, faster way to engage directly with targeted audience than traditional media. Hence it's tremendous appeal to marketers, but to say “purists won't last” is, IMO, just missing the point. Marketers need to adhere to best principals to facilitate the desired social activity while at the same time measuring responses to ensure ROI. If things aren't working, then a change of tactics is warranted, but the best practice principles (purism?) will remain.

    • Thanks Roger. I think we just aren't agreeing on the puritan principles. The real social media purists are anti-ad, anti-call-to-action and say that engaging and conversation are what social media is all about. I say it can be done (though a delicate balance) with both ends of the spectrum covered. You can drive business transactions. You can present buying options. You can capture email addresses, etc., within the context of good social media. And if you don't, you have a much harder time proving you've done a good job with it.

      • rogerharris

        Okay. I get that. You're right, it depends on how you characterize a “purist.” My sense here is that it is difficult to pigeonhole the diverse array of opinions and practices. So maybe we can define exactly what a purist is. I consider myself somewhat of a purist in the need to engage via meaningful conversation, but I am certainly not against ads and would always recommend a call-to-action. But like you say, it can be a delicate balance.

  • Following-up (http://twitter.com/jratlee/status/5975009326). I don't know, something about the totality of this argument seems a bit shallow to me. Your points, other people's counterpoints, etc.

    Yes, you need to make money but okay what happens when we all do that? Everyone listens, changes, etc. I doubt our fundamental problems will have been solved. Sure, a Twitter account needs to serve purpose both fiscally and brand-related but it's a tool. Nothing more, nothing less. What drives success? A culture, an understanding and a solid way to communicate with each other that a business has to embody. Sort of along the lines of this “social business” stuff going around but even that is a bit self-serving.

    Break it down and understand yourself a bit more. Use tools to help shape but don't forget what is at the root of everything. The how and the why. The value (not just to the business) to another human being.

    Points of reference:

    http://www.philgomes.com/blog/2008/12/in-defens

    http://jratlee.com/post/239495268/untangling-br

  • Following-up (http://twitter.com/jratlee/status/5975009326). I don't know, something about the totality of this argument seems a bit shallow to me. Your points, other people's counterpoints, etc.

    Yes, you need to make money but okay what happens when we all do that? Everyone listens, changes, etc. I doubt our fundamental problems will have been solved. Sure, a Twitter account needs to serve purpose both fiscally and brand-related but it's a tool. Nothing more, nothing less. What drives success? A culture, an understanding and a solid way to communicate with each other that a business has to embody. Sort of along the lines of this “social business” stuff going around but even that is a bit self-serving.

    Break it down and understand yourself a bit more. Use tools to help shape but don't forget what is at the root of everything. The how and the why. The value (not just to the business) to another human being.

    Points of reference:

    http://www.philgomes.com/blog/2008/12/in-defens

    http://jratlee.com/post/239495268/untangling-br

  • Following-up (http://twitter.com/jratlee/status/5975009326). I don't know, something about the totality of this argument seems a bit shallow to me. Your points, other people's counterpoints, etc.

    Yes, you need to make money but okay what happens when we all do that? Everyone listens, changes, etc. I doubt our fundamental problems will have been solved. Sure, a Twitter account needs to serve purpose both fiscally and brand-related but it's a tool. Nothing more, nothing less. What drives success? A culture, an understanding and a solid way to communicate with each other that a business has to embody. Sort of along the lines of this “social business” stuff going around but even that is a bit self-serving.

    Break it down and understand yourself a bit more. Use tools to help shape but don't forget what is at the root of everything. The how and the why. The value (not just to the business) to another human being.

    Points of reference:

    http://www.philgomes.com/blog/2008/12/in-defens

    http://jratlee.com/post/239495268/untangling-br

  • Following-up (http://twitter.com/jratlee/status/5975009326). I don't know, something about the totality of this argument seems a bit shallow to me. Your points, other people's counterpoints, etc.

    Yes, you need to make money but okay what happens when we all do that? Everyone listens, changes, etc. I doubt our fundamental problems will have been solved. Sure, a Twitter account needs to serve purpose both fiscally and brand-related but it's a tool. Nothing more, nothing less. What drives success? A culture, an understanding and a solid way to communicate with each other that a business has to embody. Sort of along the lines of this “social business” stuff going around but even that is a bit self-serving.

    Break it down and understand yourself a bit more. Use tools to help shape but don't forget what is at the root of everything. The how and the why. The value (not just to the business) to another human being.

    Points of reference:

    http://www.philgomes.com/blog/2008/12/in-defens

    http://jratlee.com/post/239495268/untangling-br

    • Thanks John. I don't think a strong social media strategy ignores the value to the other human beings (customers/audiences) that you suggest. And to clarify, I am not arguing we shouldn't be concerned about the conversations and engagement with our audiences. The point of the post is only to say that clear business objectives need to drive what we as social media thinkers and do-ers are recommending to our companies and clients. Otherwise, we aren't serving those clients well. There is a balance and social media success hinges upon how transparent and honest you can be as a company, along with the value you can provide your audiences. But if that value is not translated into profits or cost savings, the brutal honesty of the business world is that you won't be doing social media for that company very much longer.

      I'm also a strong proponent of the idea that most consumers are not in line with the social media puritanism. People DO respond to advertisements. They are persuaded by them. They don't always opt out. The ones they respond to are normally either A) Companies they like and/or B) Those who give them compelling reasons to respond and/or C) Those who present the calls to action in compelling ways.

      My point is to say that in the midst of your conversations and engagements, it's okay to give your audience the option to buy, join or recommend. So long as you're providing the value and engagement they want and/or need, they're opting in to you. They won't mind you asking them to help pay the bills.

      Thanks for the push back and the links.

      • Certainly. I wasn't articulate enough in my response. You definitely need clear business objectives. I'm arguing against the “bolt-on” mentality that still exists no matter how fluent client and counsel are. I'm sure you can attest to success within a client's company and externally when you're working with someone who's breathing the same air as you. Not just hiring you to plug a hole. The programs and counsel, even with great biz objectives, will only bring a company to a sink or swim point. They have to jump all the way in, believe it, use it an live it – not just throw $ at it. It's hard to visualize I suppose but there are companies doing well not because they trust their counsel but because they're living it. They're using it. It's an honest to god part of their life.

        I agree with you about advertising. It works and I'm looking forward to new ways for consumers to sponsor things they enjoy. Kickstarter and the Put This On blog is a great example of that. I guess I just want to see more functionality, more true value in the space. Not another half-baked microsite that eats up budget.

        I suppose it all stems from all parties settling for less more often than not. Yes, determining factors of time, money, etc. loom large but – to your point – people sort of have the psychology of these tools backwards. They're mistaking ease-of-use for larger reach and designing towards that when, instead (when thresholds are lowered), there is a stronger need for focus. What really matters in those 2 seconds someone is paying attention to you?

  • iancleary

    Hi Jason,

    What about using social media to reduce costs. Companies at the moment are downsizing but I think they will be reluctant to go on a big hiring spree when they start hiring again. I think the innovative companies will see the potential of using social media to keep their costs down. For example, instead of building up a big customer support team why don't they use a site such as getsatisfication, when they are hiring they are more likely to use LinkedIn. They will become leaner and meaner which will help their profits.

    I agree that a lot of companies are not really investing in social media they are just wasting their time but I think the innovative companies that use social media successfully could be really really successful.

  • iancleary

    Hi Jason,

    What about using social media to reduce costs. Companies at the moment are downsizing but I think they will be reluctant to go on a big hiring spree when they start hiring again. I think the innovative companies will see the potential of using social media to keep their costs down. For example, instead of building up a big customer support team why don't they use a site such as getsatisfication, when they are hiring they are more likely to use LinkedIn. They will become leaner and meaner which will help their profits.

    I agree that a lot of companies are not really investing in social media they are just wasting their time but I think the innovative companies that use social media successfully could be really really successful.

  • iancleary

    Hi Jason,

    What about using social media to reduce costs. Companies at the moment are downsizing but I think they will be reluctant to go on a big hiring spree when they start hiring again. I think the innovative companies will see the potential of using social media to keep their costs down. For example, instead of building up a big customer support team why don't they use a site such as getsatisfication, when they are hiring they are more likely to use LinkedIn. They will become leaner and meaner which will help their profits.

    I agree that a lot of companies are not really investing in social media they are just wasting their time but I think the innovative companies that use social media successfully could be really really successful.

  • iancleary

    Hi Jason,

    What about using social media to reduce costs. Companies at the moment are downsizing but I think they will be reluctant to go on a big hiring spree when they start hiring again. I think the innovative companies will see the potential of using social media to keep their costs down. For example, instead of building up a big customer support team why don't they use a site such as getsatisfication, when they are hiring they are more likely to use LinkedIn. They will become leaner and meaner which will help their profits.

    I agree that a lot of companies are not really investing in social media they are just wasting their time but I think the innovative companies that use social media successfully could be really really successful.

    • Thanks Ian. Whether you're using social media to drive profits or reduce costs, you have to have business goals and clear metrics to underline your successes with those goals. Savings/Profits would be interchangeable, but thanks for forcing me to clarify.

  • Just take care not to be setting up a straw man in 'purists'! But I think I know the kinds of folks you refer to; an experienced brand strategy consultant I know was telling me about these folks she meets who are articulate speakers, able to spout off the mantras of all the well-known social media thinkers, but they can't explain what they can do for her clients. They can talk, but they don't offer any concrete services.

  • Just take care not to be setting up a straw man in 'purists'! But I think I know the kinds of folks you refer to; an experienced brand strategy consultant I know was telling me about these folks she meets who are articulate speakers, able to spout off the mantras of all the well-known social media thinkers, but they can't explain what they can do for her clients. They can talk, but they don't offer any concrete services.

  • Just take care not to be setting up a straw man in 'purists'! But I think I know the kinds of folks you refer to; an experienced brand strategy consultant I know was telling me about these folks she meets who are articulate speakers, able to spout off the mantras of all the well-known social media thinkers, but they can't explain what they can do for her clients. They can talk, but they don't offer any concrete services.

  • Great post Jason! About time somebody says it as clearly and succinctly.

  • Great post Jason! About time somebody says it as clearly and succinctly.

  • Great post Jason! About time somebody says it as clearly and succinctly.

  • Great post Jason! About time somebody says it as clearly and succinctly.

    • Thank you, Liz. Appreciate the comment.

  • :-)

  • :-)

  • :-)

  • ” My point is that selling the “fluff” of social media
    gets you nowhere. Selling the measurable benefits to the company
    success does. ”

    Exactly. I wrote today about how tired I am of fluff. I bust my ass writing frameworks – because they calm the fears of the client, and provide structure for people to build.

  • ” My point is that selling the “fluff” of social media
    gets you nowhere. Selling the measurable benefits to the company
    success does. ”

    Exactly. I wrote today about how tired I am of fluff. I bust my ass writing frameworks – because they calm the fears of the client, and provide structure for people to build.

  • ” My point is that selling the “fluff” of social media
    gets you nowhere. Selling the measurable benefits to the company
    success does. ”

    Exactly. I wrote today about how tired I am of fluff. I bust my ass writing frameworks – because they calm the fears of the client, and provide structure for people to build.

  • Both of you make perfectly sound, reasoned points. However, I'll just point out that the intent of the post is to put to rest that selling on principle alone does not mesh with reality of the fact that businesses need to ascertain value from their activity.

    It's my belief that if a business has a goal, a real — unquestionable — purpose in their activity, they can do it well and provide a return on it. That is, if a mattress company wants to help people by giving lower-income people a free bed, there is absolutely no ROI in it, except for the positive experience, good PR and of course, brand awareness. Even then, those metrics can be fuzzy. But if the mattress company had a purpose in giving all people a better night's rest, not pushing 7-figure profits, then it works perfectly for them and is justifiable.

    Purists drive the agenda in social media behaviors. That way real businesses don't get caught up auto-DMing or auto-Replying to people on social networks with a link to buy something. People buy when they are ready and conditioned to buy. All a business has to do is minimize the barriers and be there.

    Jay, you've made very strong points in support of conversation marketing as well as Jason for tying that to results, but I feel the bigger vice here is trying to apply one rule, one mentality, one practice universally to hundreds of verticals out there.

    ~joe

  • Both of you make perfectly sound, reasoned points. However, I'll just point out that the intent of the post is to put to rest that selling on principle alone does not mesh with reality of the fact that businesses need to ascertain value from their activity.

    It's my belief that if a business has a goal, a real — unquestionable — purpose in their activity, they can do it well and provide a return on it. That is, if a mattress company wants to help people by giving lower-income people a free bed, there is absolutely no ROI in it, except for the positive experience, good PR and of course, brand awareness. Even then, those metrics can be fuzzy. But if the mattress company had a purpose in giving all people a better night's rest, not pushing 7-figure profits, then it works perfectly for them and is justifiable.

    Purists drive the agenda in social media behaviors. That way real businesses don't get caught up auto-DMing or auto-Replying to people on social networks with a link to buy something. People buy when they are ready and conditioned to buy. All a business has to do is minimize the barriers and be there.

    Jay, you've made very strong points in support of conversation marketing as well as Jason for tying that to results, but I feel the bigger vice here is trying to apply one rule, one mentality, one practice universally to hundreds of verticals out there.

    ~joe

  • Both of you make perfectly sound, reasoned points. However, I'll just point out that the intent of the post is to put to rest that selling on principle alone does not mesh with reality of the fact that businesses need to ascertain value from their activity.

    It's my belief that if a business has a goal, a real — unquestionable — purpose in their activity, they can do it well and provide a return on it. That is, if a mattress company wants to help people by giving lower-income people a free bed, there is absolutely no ROI in it, except for the positive experience, good PR and of course, brand awareness. Even then, those metrics can be fuzzy. But if the mattress company had a purpose in giving all people a better night's rest, not pushing 7-figure profits, then it works perfectly for them and is justifiable.

    Purists drive the agenda in social media behaviors. That way real businesses don't get caught up auto-DMing or auto-Replying to people on social networks with a link to buy something. People buy when they are ready and conditioned to buy. All a business has to do is minimize the barriers and be there.

    Jay, you've made very strong points in support of conversation marketing as well as Jason for tying that to results, but I feel the bigger vice here is trying to apply one rule, one mentality, one practice universally to hundreds of verticals out there.

    ~joe

  • This is so brilliant, Jason, I practically wept with relief that someone intelligent and eloquent was willing to talk about the Social Media Emperor’s (lack of) wardrobe. Businesses in this economy are barely able to think 3-4 months ahead, let alone the “10 years” it was suggested above that it takes to develop “relationships” with consumers.

    If you sell a product or service you know that you must constantly innovate, tweak, change, grow and evolve simply in order to survive. Social media conversations can certainly help you maintain a rapport with customers as this happens, and we’re lucky to have such a powerful tool.

    But seriously? If you are not helping make money right now (or at least THIS QUARTER), you can pretty much take all of your dreams, plans, wishes and hopes and try to cash them at the bank. You’ll get the same response from them that you get from the CEO. Worthless.

    -J

  • I think Jason's point is that “talkity talk” for the sake of just tossing something out there isn't going to generate sales . . . that there has to be some objective to the content versus just putting it out there for content's sake alone. I may be wrong, but that's what I got out of it, and I don't believe that's trying to have it “both ways.”

  • I think Jason's point is that “talkity talk” for the sake of just tossing something out there isn't going to generate sales . . . that there has to be some objective to the content versus just putting it out there for content's sake alone. I may be wrong, but that's what I got out of it, and I don't believe that's trying to have it “both ways.”

  • I think Jason's point is that “talkity talk” for the sake of just tossing something out there isn't going to generate sales . . . that there has to be some objective to the content versus just putting it out there for content's sake alone. I may be wrong, but that's what I got out of it, and I don't believe that's trying to have it “both ways.”

  • I am strictly against ghost blogging merely as a matter of principle. However, if it works for the business and the audience is satisfied, who's to care?

    However, the question must be begged, if a VP or a CEO can't pen together a sentence in 140 characters or share a short story on a blog; why are they even at that position? I'm just saying, it goes both ways. There are many easy ways to produce content … video, audio, transcription through an assistant, etc.

    ~joe

  • I am strictly against ghost blogging merely as a matter of principle. However, if it works for the business and the audience is satisfied, who's to care?

    However, the question must be begged, if a VP or a CEO can't pen together a sentence in 140 characters or share a short story on a blog; why are they even at that position? I'm just saying, it goes both ways. There are many easy ways to produce content … video, audio, transcription through an assistant, etc.

    ~joe

  • I am strictly against ghost blogging merely as a matter of principle. However, if it works for the business and the audience is satisfied, who's to care?

    However, the question must be begged, if a VP or a CEO can't pen together a sentence in 140 characters or share a short story on a blog; why are they even at that position? I'm just saying, it goes both ways. There are many easy ways to produce content … video, audio, transcription through an assistant, etc.

    ~joe

  • Your points are well articulated and thoughtful. Anyone that merely talks or does something for the purpose of doing it, isn't doing it right. There must be a sense of purpose … a goal … that drives social media activity.

    Many businesses who tweet have no purpose in being there, other than doing it to be 'cool' with customers. It's not a jaded stance, it's an honest one. If they find their purpose, it will come through in their activity.

    It's important that if a business does subsidize social media activity, even from purists alike, they must, MUST deliver value. If that value is revenue, reduced expenses or more brand awareness … then measure it and take action on it.

    I can proudly acclaim our social media activity at Infusionsoft (http://www.infusionsoft.com) to hard, concrete dollars in our sales reporting from Twitter, Facebook and our Blog … organically, not PPC or whatnot. And the revenue far exceeds my salary, so it's justifiable for the business to be out there, engaging and producing content that reaches a larger audience.

    Again, very good points. A bit sharp, but solid. Every social media evangelist, professional and “expert” ought to heed them and provide value to the business as well as others. :)

    ~joe

  • Your points are well articulated and thoughtful. Anyone that merely talks or does something for the purpose of doing it, isn't doing it right. There must be a sense of purpose … a goal … that drives social media activity.

    Many businesses who tweet have no purpose in being there, other than doing it to be 'cool' with customers. It's not a jaded stance, it's an honest one. If they find their purpose, it will come through in their activity.

    It's important that if a business does subsidize social media activity, even from purists alike, they must, MUST deliver value. If that value is revenue, reduced expenses or more brand awareness … then measure it and take action on it.

    I can proudly acclaim our social media activity at Infusionsoft (http://www.infusionsoft.com) to hard, concrete dollars in our sales reporting from Twitter, Facebook and our Blog … organically, not PPC or whatnot. And the revenue far exceeds my salary, so it's justifiable for the business to be out there, engaging and producing content that reaches a larger audience.

    Again, very good points. A bit sharp, but solid. Every social media evangelist, professional and “expert” ought to heed them and provide value to the business as well as others. :)

    ~joe

  • Your points are well articulated and thoughtful. Anyone that merely talks or does something for the purpose of doing it, isn't doing it right. There must be a sense of purpose … a goal … that drives social media activity.

    Many businesses who tweet have no purpose in being there, other than doing it to be 'cool' with customers. It's not a jaded stance, it's an honest one. If they find their purpose, it will come through in their activity.

    It's important that if a business does subsidize social media activity, even from purists alike, they must, MUST deliver value. If that value is revenue, reduced expenses or more brand awareness … then measure it and take action on it.

    I can proudly acclaim our social media activity at Infusionsoft (http://www.infusionsoft.com) to hard, concrete dollars in our sales reporting from Twitter, Facebook and our Blog … organically, not PPC or whatnot. And the revenue far exceeds my salary, so it's justifiable for the business to be out there, engaging and producing content that reaches a larger audience.

    Again, very good points. A bit sharp, but solid. Every social media evangelist, professional and “expert” ought to heed them and provide value to the business as well as others. :)

    ~joe

  • Your points are well articulated and thoughtful. Anyone that merely talks or does something for the purpose of doing it, isn't doing it right. There must be a sense of purpose … a goal … that drives social media activity.

    Many businesses who tweet have no purpose in being there, other than doing it to be 'cool' with customers. It's not a jaded stance, it's an honest one. If they find their purpose, it will come through in their activity.

    It's important that if a business does subsidize social media activity, even from purists alike, they must, MUST deliver value. If that value is revenue, reduced expenses or more brand awareness … then measure it and take action on it.

    I can proudly acclaim our social media activity at Infusionsoft (http://www.infusionsoft.com) to hard, concrete dollars in our sales reporting from Twitter, Facebook and our Blog … organically, not PPC or whatnot. And the revenue far exceeds my salary, so it's justifiable for the business to be out there, engaging and producing content that reaches a larger audience.

    Again, very good points. A bit sharp, but solid. Every social media evangelist, professional and “expert” ought to heed them and provide value to the business as well as others. :)

    ~joe

    • Thank you, Joseph. And thanks for the other reactions within the comments. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to participate today.

  • Well, you can be both a purist and a business person.

  • Well, you can be both a purist and a business person.

  • Well, you can be both a purist and a business person.

  • Well, you can be both a purist and a business person.

    • That's all you got? Heh. Agreed. If only the mix was easy to achieve.

      • Yep, went totally lazy with that one. I'm a purist on some issues – full disclosure, engaging – but have always said that it needs to be tied into something.

        Sorta like PR. We're here to get people to know about a company, its products, to get the word out. Same with SM. And that's measurable in various ways. :)

  • I have nothing new to contribute that hasn't already been mentioned. I'm just glad to have finally found someone [within social media as it relates to business] who understands that it always comes down to the bottom line.

  • I have nothing new to contribute that hasn't already been mentioned. I'm just glad to have finally found someone [within social media as it relates to business] who understands that it always comes down to the bottom line.

  • I have nothing new to contribute that hasn't already been mentioned. I'm just glad to have finally found someone [within social media as it relates to business] who understands that it always comes down to the bottom line.

  • I have nothing new to contribute that hasn't already been mentioned. I'm just glad to have finally found someone [within social media as it relates to business] who understands that it always comes down to the bottom line.

    • Thanks, Joseph. Appreciate the comment, nonetheless.

  • Let's drill down on that. What would you say is an example of flippant prioritization of conversations, at the metrics layer? For me, it's using Facebook fans and Twitter followers and social media mentions as a key success metric. But more so than that, I see the egregious issue as not being over-emphasis on conversations, but over-emphasis on framework. Having a Twitter account and a Facebook page and a blog and a Linkedin group or whatever is not a benefit – it is a cost. It costs your organization time and money to have those things, and unless you have some sense of WHY you are involved in social media, what your desired business outcome will be, you shouldn't do it yet. Period.

  • Let's drill down on that. What would you say is an example of flippant prioritization of conversations, at the metrics layer? For me, it's using Facebook fans and Twitter followers and social media mentions as a key success metric. But more so than that, I see the egregious issue as not being over-emphasis on conversations, but over-emphasis on framework. Having a Twitter account and a Facebook page and a blog and a Linkedin group or whatever is not a benefit – it is a cost. It costs your organization time and money to have those things, and unless you have some sense of WHY you are involved in social media, what your desired business outcome will be, you shouldn't do it yet. Period.

  • Let's drill down on that. What would you say is an example of flippant prioritization of conversations, at the metrics layer? For me, it's using Facebook fans and Twitter followers and social media mentions as a key success metric. But more so than that, I see the egregious issue as not being over-emphasis on conversations, but over-emphasis on framework. Having a Twitter account and a Facebook page and a blog and a Linkedin group or whatever is not a benefit – it is a cost. It costs your organization time and money to have those things, and unless you have some sense of WHY you are involved in social media, what your desired business outcome will be, you shouldn't do it yet. Period.

  • Let's drill down on that. What would you say is an example of flippant prioritization of conversations, at the metrics layer? For me, it's using Facebook fans and Twitter followers and social media mentions as a key success metric. But more so than that, I see the egregious issue as not being over-emphasis on conversations, but over-emphasis on framework. Having a Twitter account and a Facebook page and a blog and a Linkedin group or whatever is not a benefit – it is a cost. It costs your organization time and money to have those things, and unless you have some sense of WHY you are involved in social media, what your desired business outcome will be, you shouldn't do it yet. Period.

  • Let's drill down on that. What would you say is an example of flippant prioritization of conversations, at the metrics layer? For me, it's using Facebook fans and Twitter followers and social media mentions as a key success metric. But more so than that, I see the egregious issue as not being over-emphasis on conversations, but over-emphasis on framework. Having a Twitter account and a Facebook page and a blog and a Linkedin group or whatever is not a benefit – it is a cost. It costs your organization time and money to have those things, and unless you have some sense of WHY you are involved in social media, what your desired business outcome will be, you shouldn't do it yet. Period.

  • Bullseye.

  • Bullseye.

  • Bullseye.

  • Bullseye.

  • You give them a wake up call and they'll have to grow up and take accountability and, well, who can create under such pressure. :-)

  • You give them a wake up call and they'll have to grow up and take accountability and, well, who can create under such pressure. :-)

  • You give them a wake up call and they'll have to grow up and take accountability and, well, who can create under such pressure. :-)

  • Relax, my friend. My point is that selling the “fluff” of social media
    gets you nowhere. Selling the measurable benefits to the company
    success does. Customer service/CRM – produces measurable results that
    CEOs can understand. Content that drives search, enhances brand
    loyalty and awareness produces results that CEOs can understand. It's
    not about ignoring the conversation, it's about using it to drive
    business results, not prioritizing it flippantly as if that alone will
    move the needle.

  • Relax, my friend. My point is that selling the “fluff” of social media
    gets you nowhere. Selling the measurable benefits to the company
    success does. Customer service/CRM – produces measurable results that
    CEOs can understand. Content that drives search, enhances brand
    loyalty and awareness produces results that CEOs can understand. It's
    not about ignoring the conversation, it's about using it to drive
    business results, not prioritizing it flippantly as if that alone will
    move the needle.

  • Relax, my friend. My point is that selling the “fluff” of social media
    gets you nowhere. Selling the measurable benefits to the company
    success does. Customer service/CRM – produces measurable results that
    CEOs can understand. Content that drives search, enhances brand
    loyalty and awareness produces results that CEOs can understand. It's
    not about ignoring the conversation, it's about using it to drive
    business results, not prioritizing it flippantly as if that alone will
    move the needle.

  • Fair points, Nat. The social media purists I refer to are the (mostly)
    individuals (i.e. not brand or company related, but the old skool
    blogger types who have grown up in social media the last four or five
    years and are now “consultants”) who keep coming back to the same
    “engage an audience” “all about the conversation” arguments. They
    don't draw lines to the bottom line. So, yes, I'm referring to social
    media marketing purists. But I wouldn't delineate a difference between
    them and social media purists simply because, as you describe that
    term, you're just talking about tool geeks. Most of them have no
    interest in marketing, per say. I love 'em both, just think the
    marketing side of the aisle needs a wake-up call of sorts.

    Thanks!

  • Fair points, Nat. The social media purists I refer to are the (mostly)
    individuals (i.e. not brand or company related, but the old skool
    blogger types who have grown up in social media the last four or five
    years and are now “consultants”) who keep coming back to the same
    “engage an audience” “all about the conversation” arguments. They
    don't draw lines to the bottom line. So, yes, I'm referring to social
    media marketing purists. But I wouldn't delineate a difference between
    them and social media purists simply because, as you describe that
    term, you're just talking about tool geeks. Most of them have no
    interest in marketing, per say. I love 'em both, just think the
    marketing side of the aisle needs a wake-up call of sorts.

    Thanks!

  • Fair points, Nat. The social media purists I refer to are the (mostly)
    individuals (i.e. not brand or company related, but the old skool
    blogger types who have grown up in social media the last four or five
    years and are now “consultants”) who keep coming back to the same
    “engage an audience” “all about the conversation” arguments. They
    don't draw lines to the bottom line. So, yes, I'm referring to social
    media marketing purists. But I wouldn't delineate a difference between
    them and social media purists simply because, as you describe that
    term, you're just talking about tool geeks. Most of them have no
    interest in marketing, per say. I love 'em both, just think the
    marketing side of the aisle needs a wake-up call of sorts.

    Thanks!

  • Hmmm. Social media can't stand alone. No question about it. It's not a solo act, it's part of a jazz combo. And I think that's really the point.

    It's not that social media can't drive business, or that conversations can't lead to revenue – they can – kinship with companies drives brand preference. But what is important is that treating social media as a silo doesn't generate enough cross-functional momentum to be impactful.

    All the examples you cite use social media in cooperation with other tactics to generate results. Search. Email. Web sites.

    That is the social media secret sauce. To not think of social media as a “new” anything, but rather an ingredient to add to what you're already doing effectively.

    Also, all of the examples you cite use one technique that really does change the game, whether we want to acknowledge it as “social media” or not. They all involve companies taking their message directly to consumers. Not through a third party intermediary like the press. Directly.

    So, I take your point that it has to be about results. But there are also a lot of contradictions in this post. You laud companies for driving revenue through content creation (Marriott blog, Southwest and Dell, et al) but in your conclusion you take a shot at sharing content.

    Which is it? Content is good for driving revenue, or content is just talkity talk. You can't have it both ways.

    You're also completely ignoring a major benefit of social involvement, which is the customer service/CRM angle. I've always said that social media's best and highest usage is in customer loyalty and retention, yet you seem to be advocating old-school direct marketing come-ons using newfangled tools. And that scares me.

    If people who have done as much of this as you have are succumbing to “let's turn social media into a new way to speak unidirectionally at people, and sell them stuff” then I fear we are all doomed.

  • Hmmm. Social media can't stand alone. No question about it. It's not a solo act, it's part of a jazz combo. And I think that's really the point.

    It's not that social media can't drive business, or that conversations can't lead to revenue – they can – kinship with companies drives brand preference. But what is important is that treating social media as a silo doesn't generate enough cross-functional momentum to be impactful.

    All the examples you cite use social media in cooperation with other tactics to generate results. Search. Email. Web sites.

    That is the social media secret sauce. To not think of social media as a “new” anything, but rather an ingredient to add to what you're already doing effectively.

    Also, all of the examples you cite use one technique that really does change the game, whether we want to acknowledge it as “social media” or not. They all involve companies taking their message directly to consumers. Not through a third party intermediary like the press. Directly.

    So, I take your point that it has to be about results. But there are also a lot of contradictions in this post. You laud companies for driving revenue through content creation (Marriott blog, Southwest and Dell, et al) but in your conclusion you take a shot at sharing content.

    Which is it? Content is good for driving revenue, or content is just talkity talk. You can't have it both ways.

    You're also completely ignoring a major benefit of social involvement, which is the customer service/CRM angle. I've always said that social media's best and highest usage is in customer loyalty and retention, yet you seem to be advocating old-school direct marketing come-ons using newfangled tools. And that scares me.

    If people who have done as much of this as you have are succumbing to “let's turn social media into a new way to speak unidirectionally at people, and sell them stuff” then I fear we are all doomed.

  • Hmmm. Social media can't stand alone. No question about it. It's not a solo act, it's part of a jazz combo. And I think that's really the point.

    It's not that social media can't drive business, or that conversations can't lead to revenue – they can – kinship with companies drives brand preference. But what is important is that treating social media as a silo doesn't generate enough cross-functional momentum to be impactful.

    All the examples you cite use social media in cooperation with other tactics to generate results. Search. Email. Web sites.

    That is the social media secret sauce. To not think of social media as a “new” anything, but rather an ingredient to add to what you're already doing effectively.

    Also, all of the examples you cite use one technique that really does change the game, whether we want to acknowledge it as “social media” or not. They all involve companies taking their message directly to consumers. Not through a third party intermediary like the press. Directly.

    So, I take your point that it has to be about results. But there are also a lot of contradictions in this post. You laud companies for driving revenue through content creation (Marriott blog, Southwest and Dell, et al) but in your conclusion you take a shot at sharing content.

    Which is it? Content is good for driving revenue, or content is just talkity talk. You can't have it both ways.

    You're also completely ignoring a major benefit of social involvement, which is the customer service/CRM angle. I've always said that social media's best and highest usage is in customer loyalty and retention, yet you seem to be advocating old-school direct marketing come-ons using newfangled tools. And that scares me.

    If people who have done as much of this as you have are succumbing to “let's turn social media into a new way to speak unidirectionally at people, and sell them stuff” then I fear we are all doomed.

  • Hmmm. Social media can't stand alone. No question about it. It's not a solo act, it's part of a jazz combo. And I think that's really the point.

    It's not that social media can't drive business, or that conversations can't lead to revenue – they can – kinship with companies drives brand preference. But what is important is that treating social media as a silo doesn't generate enough cross-functional momentum to be impactful.

    All the examples you cite use social media in cooperation with other tactics to generate results. Search. Email. Web sites.

    That is the social media secret sauce. To not think of social media as a “new” anything, but rather an ingredient to add to what you're already doing effectively.

    Also, all of the examples you cite use one technique that really does change the game, whether we want to acknowledge it as “social media” or not. They all involve companies taking their message directly to consumers. Not through a third party intermediary like the press. Directly.

    So, I take your point that it has to be about results. But there are also a lot of contradictions in this post. You laud companies for driving revenue through content creation (Marriott blog, Southwest and Dell, et al) but in your conclusion you take a shot at sharing content.

    Which is it? Content is good for driving revenue, or content is just talkity talk. You can't have it both ways.

    You're also completely ignoring a major benefit of social involvement, which is the customer service/CRM angle. I've always said that social media's best and highest usage is in customer loyalty and retention, yet you seem to be advocating old-school direct marketing come-ons using newfangled tools. And that scares me.

    If people who have done as much of this as you have are succumbing to “let's turn social media into a new way to speak unidirectionally at people, and sell them stuff” then I fear we are all doomed.

    • Relax, my friend. My point is that selling the “fluff” of social media
      gets you nowhere. Selling the measurable benefits to the company
      success does. Customer service/CRM – produces measurable results that
      CEOs can understand. Content that drives search, enhances brand
      loyalty and awareness produces results that CEOs can understand. It's
      not about ignoring the conversation, it's about using it to drive
      business results, not prioritizing it flippantly as if that alone will
      move the needle.

      • Let's drill down on that. What would you say is an example of flippant prioritization of conversations, at the metrics layer? For me, it's using Facebook fans and Twitter followers and social media mentions as a key success metric. But more so than that, I see the egregious issue as not being over-emphasis on conversations, but over-emphasis on framework. Having a Twitter account and a Facebook page and a blog and a Linkedin group or whatever is not a benefit – it is a cost. It costs your organization time and money to have those things, and unless you have some sense of WHY you are involved in social media, what your desired business outcome will be, you shouldn't do it yet. Period.

        • Both of you make perfectly sound, reasoned points. However, I'll just point out that the intent of the post is to put to rest that selling on principle alone does not mesh with reality of the fact that businesses need to ascertain value from their activity.

          It's my belief that if a business has a goal, a real — unquestionable — purpose in their activity, they can do it well and provide a return on it. That is, if a mattress company wants to help people by giving lower-income people a free bed, there is absolutely no ROI in it, except for the positive experience, good PR and of course, brand awareness. Even then, those metrics can be fuzzy. But if the mattress company had a purpose in giving all people a better night's rest, not pushing 7-figure profits, then it works perfectly for them and is justifiable.

          Purists drive the agenda in social media behaviors. That way real businesses don't get caught up auto-DMing or auto-Replying to people on social networks with a link to buy something. People buy when they are ready and conditioned to buy. All a business has to do is minimize the barriers and be there.

          Jay, you've made very strong points in support of conversation marketing as well as Jason for tying that to results, but I feel the bigger vice here is trying to apply one rule, one mentality, one practice universally to hundreds of verticals out there.

          ~joe

        • Jay–I agree that these assets (and they truly are assets once you've built a relevant & sizable following on any of the social media properties) take time to develop (at a cost) and should be tracked back to a success metric or it's a wasted effort.

          Some potential metrics to monitor and analyze could include: web visits, leads generated/captured, sales converted, mentions to others (WOM), repeat purchases, brand recognition/recall, reduction in traditional ad costs, market share, up-sells, cross-sells, foot traffic (if it's a physical location), etc.

          The same things you'd measure with a traditional ad campaign can be measured with social media . . . it may take a little extra thinking on the front end to figure out exactly how you can measure what's important and how success will be determined.

          Measurement has been the big “but” with social media . . . supposedly you “can't measure it accurately” to which I call BS! There at least ten metrics outlined in this comment alone that can be measured, and that's just off the top of my head. There are undoubtedly more that could be added to the list, and your point is valid–measurement needs to be included in the equation or why bother?

      • ” My point is that selling the “fluff” of social media
        gets you nowhere. Selling the measurable benefits to the company
        success does. ”

        Exactly. I wrote today about how tired I am of fluff. I bust my ass writing frameworks – because they calm the fears of the client, and provide structure for people to build.

    • I think Jason's point is that “talkity talk” for the sake of just tossing something out there isn't going to generate sales . . . that there has to be some objective to the content versus just putting it out there for content's sake alone. I may be wrong, but that's what I got out of it, and I don't believe that's trying to have it “both ways.”

    • Jason and Jay(son)– you are both friends of mine, and therefore I know you are both saying the same thing. Social media is a tool, not a panacea, a tactic, not a strategy. Yup. You can't sell anything through social media alone, especially through Twitter. You have to figure out what the correct mix of tools is for each product or service.

      Take off your vest, Jason. You don't need it.

  • socialmallard

    I've always argued that to drive SM efforts, companies should hire/retain those who are smart and experienced marketers first, who *also* are fluent in social media. You have to understand the foundation, how to tie in to and drive a complete integrated marketing effort, in order to make SM truly effective for the business. (swap “marketers” for PR, support, etc, depending on the goals of your SM efforts – the point is still the same).

    Ignore* the true believers and the zealots – they are useful for pushing the boundaries, but not for building a solid and sustainable business.

    Great post btw Jason.

    *By ignore I don't mean entirely discount – pay attention to see how they push the space to evolve and make creative use of the tools. Just don't uncritically buy into everything they're selling.

  • socialmallard

    I've always argued that to drive SM efforts, companies should hire/retain those who are smart and experienced marketers first, who *also* are fluent in social media. You have to understand the foundation, how to tie in to and drive a complete integrated marketing effort, in order to make SM truly effective for the business. (swap “marketers” for PR, support, etc, depending on the goals of your SM efforts – the point is still the same).

    Ignore* the true believers and the zealots – they are useful for pushing the boundaries, but not for building a solid and sustainable business.

    Great post btw Jason.

    *By ignore I don't mean entirely discount – pay attention to see how they push the space to evolve and make creative use of the tools. Just don't uncritically buy into everything they're selling.

  • socialmallard

    I've always argued that to drive SM efforts, companies should hire/retain those who are smart and experienced marketers first, who *also* are fluent in social media. You have to understand the foundation, how to tie in to and drive a complete integrated marketing effort, in order to make SM truly effective for the business. (swap “marketers” for PR, support, etc, depending on the goals of your SM efforts – the point is still the same).

    Ignore* the true believers and the zealots – they are useful for pushing the boundaries, but not for building a solid and sustainable business.

    Great post btw Jason.

    *By ignore I don't mean entirely discount – pay attention to see how they push the space to evolve and make creative use of the tools. Just don't uncritically buy into everything they're selling.

  • socialmallard

    I've always argued that to drive SM efforts, companies should hire/retain those who are smart and experienced marketers first, who *also* are fluent in social media. You have to understand the foundation, how to tie in to and drive a complete integrated marketing effort, in order to make SM truly effective for the business. (swap “marketers” for PR, support, etc, depending on the goals of your SM efforts – the point is still the same).

    Ignore* the true believers and the zealots – they are useful for pushing the boundaries, but not for building a solid and sustainable business.

    Great post btw Jason.

    *By ignore I don't mean entirely discount – pay attention to see how they push the space to evolve and make creative use of the tools. Just don't uncritically buy into everything they're selling.

    • Thanks a ton for this. The clarity is in the point that a grounding in marketing, public relations, branding, etc., is the anchor point for those who will excel in the space. If all you know is blogging, etc., you're not going to be able to provide the type of expertise brands expect. Sure, there are many than can research and catch up and provide good advice, but having the marketing chops is a BIG plus.

  • Pingback: ROI in Social Media – Where Does it Belong? « StickyFigure()

  • Interesting thoughts, Ricardo. Thanks for that. You're right that the best social media successes are by brands we want to be associated with. But they have to create that want through their actions and products. Appreciate the thoughts.

  • Interesting thoughts, Ricardo. Thanks for that. You're right that the best social media successes are by brands we want to be associated with. But they have to create that want through their actions and products. Appreciate the thoughts.

  • Interesting thoughts, Ricardo. Thanks for that. You're right that the best social media successes are by brands we want to be associated with. But they have to create that want through their actions and products. Appreciate the thoughts.

  • (sorry. last one was supposed to be in response to erikdeckers. dunno what happened)

    At this point, aren't you describing the difference between “Social Media” and “Social Media Marketing?” I'm not one to be a hairsplitter, but in this case the difference between the terms is the difference in the intention by which your describing.

    Social Media is a tool set. It can be used for business, friendships, networking, colaboration, dating, research, news gathering, humor…

    Social Media Marketing is the business approach used to enhance relationships and revenue. The reason I hairsplit is that, yes, the end goal in business is profit, but the tool set provided by Social Media allows Social Media Marketing to be more than a sales tool. Customer Service, PR, branding, “look at how transparent we are…” Can Social Media Marketing be measured online so baselines are kept? Yes. I've run tracking urls through bit.ly before.

    Social Media Purists continue to push the bounds of what 2.0/inbound marketing/new media/social media can do. Call them innovators, call them trendsetters, but in the end social media purists will be around if for no other reason than to be prophets.

    Yet there's only so many people who can make a living as a Social Media Purist. You're right, trying to be a social media purist in business is the quick and easy way to get a 99-week vacation courtesy of the federal government.

  • (sorry. last one was supposed to be in response to erikdeckers. dunno what happened)

    At this point, aren't you describing the difference between “Social Media” and “Social Media Marketing?” I'm not one to be a hairsplitter, but in this case the difference between the terms is the difference in the intention by which your describing.

    Social Media is a tool set. It can be used for business, friendships, networking, colaboration, dating, research, news gathering, humor…

    Social Media Marketing is the business approach used to enhance relationships and revenue. The reason I hairsplit is that, yes, the end goal in business is profit, but the tool set provided by Social Media allows Social Media Marketing to be more than a sales tool. Customer Service, PR, branding, “look at how transparent we are…” Can Social Media Marketing be measured online so baselines are kept? Yes. I've run tracking urls through bit.ly before.

    Social Media Purists continue to push the bounds of what 2.0/inbound marketing/new media/social media can do. Call them innovators, call them trendsetters, but in the end social media purists will be around if for no other reason than to be prophets.

    Yet there's only so many people who can make a living as a Social Media Purist. You're right, trying to be a social media purist in business is the quick and easy way to get a 99-week vacation courtesy of the federal government.

  • (sorry. last one was supposed to be in response to erikdeckers. dunno what happened)

    At this point, aren't you describing the difference between “Social Media” and “Social Media Marketing?” I'm not one to be a hairsplitter, but in this case the difference between the terms is the difference in the intention by which your describing.

    Social Media is a tool set. It can be used for business, friendships, networking, colaboration, dating, research, news gathering, humor…

    Social Media Marketing is the business approach used to enhance relationships and revenue. The reason I hairsplit is that, yes, the end goal in business is profit, but the tool set provided by Social Media allows Social Media Marketing to be more than a sales tool. Customer Service, PR, branding, “look at how transparent we are…” Can Social Media Marketing be measured online so baselines are kept? Yes. I've run tracking urls through bit.ly before.

    Social Media Purists continue to push the bounds of what 2.0/inbound marketing/new media/social media can do. Call them innovators, call them trendsetters, but in the end social media purists will be around if for no other reason than to be prophets.

    Yet there's only so many people who can make a living as a Social Media Purist. You're right, trying to be a social media purist in business is the quick and easy way to get a 99-week vacation courtesy of the federal government.

  • (sorry. last one was supposed to be in response to erikdeckers. dunno what happened)

    At this point, aren't you describing the difference between “Social Media” and “Social Media Marketing?” I'm not one to be a hairsplitter, but in this case the difference between the terms is the difference in the intention by which your describing.

    Social Media is a tool set. It can be used for business, friendships, networking, colaboration, dating, research, news gathering, humor…

    Social Media Marketing is the business approach used to enhance relationships and revenue. The reason I hairsplit is that, yes, the end goal in business is profit, but the tool set provided by Social Media allows Social Media Marketing to be more than a sales tool. Customer Service, PR, branding, “look at how transparent we are…” Can Social Media Marketing be measured online so baselines are kept? Yes. I've run tracking urls through bit.ly before.

    Social Media Purists continue to push the bounds of what 2.0/inbound marketing/new media/social media can do. Call them innovators, call them trendsetters, but in the end social media purists will be around if for no other reason than to be prophets.

    Yet there's only so many people who can make a living as a Social Media Purist. You're right, trying to be a social media purist in business is the quick and easy way to get a 99-week vacation courtesy of the federal government.

    • Fair points, Nat. The social media purists I refer to are the (mostly)
      individuals (i.e. not brand or company related, but the old skool
      blogger types who have grown up in social media the last four or five
      years and are now “consultants”) who keep coming back to the same
      “engage an audience” “all about the conversation” arguments. They
      don't draw lines to the bottom line. So, yes, I'm referring to social
      media marketing purists. But I wouldn't delineate a difference between
      them and social media purists simply because, as you describe that
      term, you're just talking about tool geeks. Most of them have no
      interest in marketing, per say. I love 'em both, just think the
      marketing side of the aisle needs a wake-up call of sorts.

      Thanks!

      • You give them a wake up call and they'll have to grow up and take accountability and, well, who can create under such pressure. :-)

      • Just take care not to be setting up a straw man in 'purists'! But I think I know the kinds of folks you refer to; an experienced brand strategy consultant I know was telling me about these folks she meets who are articulate speakers, able to spout off the mantras of all the well-known social media thinkers, but they can't explain what they can do for her clients. They can talk, but they don't offer any concrete services.

  • Thanks, Nat. I think I'm confused a bit. This looks like a great comment for my ghost writing ethics piece. Not sure why it fits well on the purists won't last piece, but I certainly appreciate the notion. I don't disagree that the message is yours no matter who writes it, if it is posted on your channel/behalf of your brand, etc. But I also think that agents acting on your behalf can provide the requisite access and trust the public expects. In fact, I know several who do it quite well. As long as the customer's expectations are met, it doesn't matter how close to the brand DNA the conduit is. Thanks for the thoughts.

  • Thanks, Nat. I think I'm confused a bit. This looks like a great comment for my ghost writing ethics piece. Not sure why it fits well on the purists won't last piece, but I certainly appreciate the notion. I don't disagree that the message is yours no matter who writes it, if it is posted on your channel/behalf of your brand, etc. But I also think that agents acting on your behalf can provide the requisite access and trust the public expects. In fact, I know several who do it quite well. As long as the customer's expectations are met, it doesn't matter how close to the brand DNA the conduit is. Thanks for the thoughts.

  • Thanks, Nat. I think I'm confused a bit. This looks like a great comment for my ghost writing ethics piece. Not sure why it fits well on the purists won't last piece, but I certainly appreciate the notion. I don't disagree that the message is yours no matter who writes it, if it is posted on your channel/behalf of your brand, etc. But I also think that agents acting on your behalf can provide the requisite access and trust the public expects. In fact, I know several who do it quite well. As long as the customer's expectations are met, it doesn't matter how close to the brand DNA the conduit is. Thanks for the thoughts.

  • Thanks, Roger. Appreciate the the comment and certainly agree.

  • Thanks, Roger. Appreciate the the comment and certainly agree.

  • Thanks, Roger. Appreciate the the comment and certainly agree.

  • andre70

    Thanks, Jason. I see your point now and actually agree. Whether you're using SM for corporate or nonprofit reasons there is always a goal (at least there should be). In most cases that goal is to inspire some type of action – typically conversion. Whether it's making a sale, changing a mind, or inspiring someone to take community action, it's all about conversion.

    It would be nice if we could speak more about conversion in general and not just in terms of profitability. But in the end it depends on your audience and what resonates with them.

    Again, great article and thanks for the response.

  • andre70

    Thanks, Jason. I see your point now and actually agree. Whether you're using SM for corporate or nonprofit reasons there is always a goal (at least there should be). In most cases that goal is to inspire some type of action – typically conversion. Whether it's making a sale, changing a mind, or inspiring someone to take community action, it's all about conversion.

    It would be nice if we could speak more about conversion in general and not just in terms of profitability. But in the end it depends on your audience and what resonates with them.

    Again, great article and thanks for the response.

  • andre70

    Thanks, Jason. I see your point now and actually agree. Whether you're using SM for corporate or nonprofit reasons there is always a goal (at least there should be). In most cases that goal is to inspire some type of action – typically conversion. Whether it's making a sale, changing a mind, or inspiring someone to take community action, it's all about conversion.

    It would be nice if we could speak more about conversion in general and not just in terms of profitability. But in the end it depends on your audience and what resonates with them.

    Again, great article and thanks for the response.

  • Thanks for the link, Boris. I'll check it out as soon as I can.

  • Thanks for the link, Boris. I'll check it out as soon as I can.

  • Thanks for the link, Boris. I'll check it out as soon as I can.

  • Ricardo

    I think this is a well reasoned argument, much in line with my worldview. I do think that good marketing is about conversation, whether it is in digalogue or facilitating dialogue. What I find interesting with social media is that perhaps we as the people don;t want brands intervening and talking to us – much of it is about us, our lives and sharing with friends and acquaintances . . . do we really see ads on facebook? Do we want to have a social relationship with a brand . .some yes – brands we like to be associated with, brands that let us say something about ourselves.

  • Ricardo

    I think this is a well reasoned argument, much in line with my worldview. I do think that good marketing is about conversation, whether it is in digalogue or facilitating dialogue. What I find interesting with social media is that perhaps we as the people don;t want brands intervening and talking to us – much of it is about us, our lives and sharing with friends and acquaintances . . . do we really see ads on facebook? Do we want to have a social relationship with a brand . .some yes – brands we like to be associated with, brands that let us say something about ourselves.

  • Ricardo

    I think this is a well reasoned argument, much in line with my worldview. I do think that good marketing is about conversation, whether it is in digalogue or facilitating dialogue. What I find interesting with social media is that perhaps we as the people don;t want brands intervening and talking to us – much of it is about us, our lives and sharing with friends and acquaintances . . . do we really see ads on facebook? Do we want to have a social relationship with a brand . .some yes – brands we like to be associated with, brands that let us say something about ourselves.

  • Ricardo

    I think this is a well reasoned argument, much in line with my worldview. I do think that good marketing is about conversation, whether it is in digalogue or facilitating dialogue. What I find interesting with social media is that perhaps we as the people don;t want brands intervening and talking to us – much of it is about us, our lives and sharing with friends and acquaintances . . . do we really see ads on facebook? Do we want to have a social relationship with a brand . .some yes – brands we like to be associated with, brands that let us say something about ourselves.

    • Interesting thoughts, Ricardo. Thanks for that. You're right that the best social media successes are by brands we want to be associated with. But they have to create that want through their actions and products. Appreciate the thoughts.

  • Don't disagree, my friend. And I love the Ford/Apple references there. Business will drive business involvement. What consumers want will drive the individual. Sometimes the two worlds will intertwine nicely, too. Soon, that will be a most-case scenario. Thanks, bro.

  • Don't disagree, my friend. And I love the Ford/Apple references there. Business will drive business involvement. What consumers want will drive the individual. Sometimes the two worlds will intertwine nicely, too. Soon, that will be a most-case scenario. Thanks, bro.

  • Don't disagree, my friend. And I love the Ford/Apple references there. Business will drive business involvement. What consumers want will drive the individual. Sometimes the two worlds will intertwine nicely, too. Soon, that will be a most-case scenario. Thanks, bro.

  • You're always welcome to drop relevant links, here my man. Appreciate the further discussion.

  • You're always welcome to drop relevant links, here my man. Appreciate the further discussion.

  • You're always welcome to drop relevant links, here my man. Appreciate the further discussion.

  • Thank you, Bart, for seeing the point of the post through all the potentially emotional touch points. Appreciate the feedback.

  • Thank you, Bart, for seeing the point of the post through all the potentially emotional touch points. Appreciate the feedback.

  • Thank you, Bart, for seeing the point of the post through all the potentially emotional touch points. Appreciate the feedback.

  • well put, jakrose.

    this would now be an endless conversation. Parity must be maintained when comparing two methods

  • well put, jakrose.

    this would now be an endless conversation. Parity must be maintained when comparing two methods

  • well put, jakrose.

    this would now be an endless conversation. Parity must be maintained when comparing two methods

  • Well played, J. Well played.

  • Well played, J. Well played.

  • Well played, J. Well played.

  • Thanks, Doug. The overriding thought the purists forget is that social media (and Internet marketing in general) is an opt-in marketplace. What's right for you may not be right for someone else, but it might still work for their audience. The high-horse riders need to remember that “rules” don't always apply. Then they might get it and actually help their clients beyond the conversation.

    Thanks, brotha.

  • Thanks, Doug. The overriding thought the purists forget is that social media (and Internet marketing in general) is an opt-in marketplace. What's right for you may not be right for someone else, but it might still work for their audience. The high-horse riders need to remember that “rules” don't always apply. Then they might get it and actually help their clients beyond the conversation.

    Thanks, brotha.

  • Thanks, Doug. The overriding thought the purists forget is that social media (and Internet marketing in general) is an opt-in marketplace. What's right for you may not be right for someone else, but it might still work for their audience. The high-horse riders need to remember that “rules” don't always apply. Then they might get it and actually help their clients beyond the conversation.

    Thanks, brotha.

  • Thanks, Doug. The overriding thought the purists forget is that social media (and Internet marketing in general) is an opt-in marketplace. What's right for you may not be right for someone else, but it might still work for their audience. The high-horse riders need to remember that “rules” don't always apply. Then they might get it and actually help their clients beyond the conversation.

    Thanks, brotha.

  • Well said, Susan. Thanks for that. (Had to look up “obsequious” Heh.)

  • Well said, Susan. Thanks for that. (Had to look up “obsequious” Heh.)

  • Well said, Susan. Thanks for that. (Had to look up “obsequious” Heh.)

  • Your last paragraph is exactly what I've been telling people. Now we figure it out. Well done, John.

  • Your last paragraph is exactly what I've been telling people. Now we figure it out. Well done, John.

  • Your last paragraph is exactly what I've been telling people. Now we figure it out. Well done, John.

  • Honored you would to so, Tobin. Thank you!

  • Honored you would to so, Tobin. Thank you!

  • Honored you would to so, Tobin. Thank you!

  • Further evidence you should blog more often, my friend. Well said.

  • Further evidence you should blog more often, my friend. Well said.

  • Further evidence you should blog more often, my friend. Well said.

  • People have been buying products for the history of commerce without being involved in the brand conversation. Social is just another additional channel for marketing. There are still plenty of marketing/commerce standbys that have nothing to do with social that move product, move services. Amongst them are proximity, price, luxury, endorsement, etc. Don't count out the history of how business and human psychology impacts the way you spend your money. Take a close look at where your money gets spent and see how many of those companies you are “involved” in.

    For instance. I use Redbox not Blockbuster because its cheap and in my grocery store. Even though Blockbuster has better movies usually. That decision has nothing to do with their social media efforts.

  • People have been buying products for the history of commerce without being involved in the brand conversation. Social is just another additional channel for marketing. There are still plenty of marketing/commerce standbys that have nothing to do with social that move product, move services. Amongst them are proximity, price, luxury, endorsement, etc. Don't count out the history of how business and human psychology impacts the way you spend your money. Take a close look at where your money gets spent and see how many of those companies you are “involved” in.

    For instance. I use Redbox not Blockbuster because its cheap and in my grocery store. Even though Blockbuster has better movies usually. That decision has nothing to do with their social media efforts.

  • People have been buying products for the history of commerce without being involved in the brand conversation. Social is just another additional channel for marketing. There are still plenty of marketing/commerce standbys that have nothing to do with social that move product, move services. Amongst them are proximity, price, luxury, endorsement, etc. Don't count out the history of how business and human psychology impacts the way you spend your money. Take a close look at where your money gets spent and see how many of those companies you are “involved” in.

    For instance. I use Redbox not Blockbuster because its cheap and in my grocery store. Even though Blockbuster has better movies usually. That decision has nothing to do with their social media efforts.

  • You're wrong. You're just wrong. Social Media is about one-to-one pure interactions. When you pay someone else to do it for you, then you upset the purity of the message and infringe upon the trust by which Social Media has been established.

    (ghost-commented provided by Walker, Jones, and Carmichael)

    No matter who writes it, it's your message if you are willing to take ownership of the thought because readers don't respond to the ghost-writer, they respond to you.

  • You're wrong. You're just wrong. Social Media is about one-to-one pure interactions. When you pay someone else to do it for you, then you upset the purity of the message and infringe upon the trust by which Social Media has been established.

    (ghost-commented provided by Walker, Jones, and Carmichael)

    No matter who writes it, it's your message if you are willing to take ownership of the thought because readers don't respond to the ghost-writer, they respond to you.

  • You're wrong. You're just wrong. Social Media is about one-to-one pure interactions. When you pay someone else to do it for you, then you upset the purity of the message and infringe upon the trust by which Social Media has been established.

    (ghost-commented provided by Walker, Jones, and Carmichael)

    No matter who writes it, it's your message if you are willing to take ownership of the thought because readers don't respond to the ghost-writer, they respond to you.

  • You're wrong. You're just wrong. Social Media is about one-to-one pure interactions. When you pay someone else to do it for you, then you upset the purity of the message and infringe upon the trust by which Social Media has been established.

    (ghost-commented provided by Walker, Jones, and Carmichael)

    No matter who writes it, it's your message if you are willing to take ownership of the thought because readers don't respond to the ghost-writer, they respond to you.

    • Thanks, Nat. I think I'm confused a bit. This looks like a great comment for my ghost writing ethics piece. Not sure why it fits well on the purists won't last piece, but I certainly appreciate the notion. I don't disagree that the message is yours no matter who writes it, if it is posted on your channel/behalf of your brand, etc. But I also think that agents acting on your behalf can provide the requisite access and trust the public expects. In fact, I know several who do it quite well. As long as the customer's expectations are met, it doesn't matter how close to the brand DNA the conduit is. Thanks for the thoughts.

  • Spot on Jason . . . bravo!

    Many marketers and ad firms fail to realize advertising & marketing's #1 goal is simply to get more leads and customers (i.e. conversions). It's not to create a conversation and rub “warm fuzzies” all over one another because (as you so eloquently put it Jason) “a conversation never paid the damn electric bill.”

    We're all in the prospecting and client generation business regardless of what we sell . . . social media is just another “channel” (as Bart stated) to attract prospects and clients that requires a bit of a different strategy to achieve success.

    Social media is no different than radio, TV, or print advertising–each medium has its own “rules” to follow to achieve the desired objectives.

    Again, great post Jason. This is something a LOT of people need to read/see/hear to get their heads out of the sand and quit preaching the “warm fuzzy” crap. Business execs don't want to hear or learn warm fuzzy BS–they want sales!

  • Spot on Jason . . . bravo!

    Many marketers and ad firms fail to realize advertising & marketing's #1 goal is simply to get more leads and customers (i.e. conversions). It's not to create a conversation and rub “warm fuzzies” all over one another because (as you so eloquently put it Jason) “a conversation never paid the damn electric bill.”

    We're all in the prospecting and client generation business regardless of what we sell . . . social media is just another “channel” (as Bart stated) to attract prospects and clients that requires a bit of a different strategy to achieve success.

    Social media is no different than radio, TV, or print advertising–each medium has its own “rules” to follow to achieve the desired objectives.

    Again, great post Jason. This is something a LOT of people need to read/see/hear to get their heads out of the sand and quit preaching the “warm fuzzy” crap. Business execs don't want to hear or learn warm fuzzy BS–they want sales!

  • Spot on Jason . . . bravo!

    Many marketers and ad firms fail to realize advertising & marketing's #1 goal is simply to get more leads and customers (i.e. conversions). It's not to create a conversation and rub “warm fuzzies” all over one another because (as you so eloquently put it Jason) “a conversation never paid the damn electric bill.”

    We're all in the prospecting and client generation business regardless of what we sell . . . social media is just another “channel” (as Bart stated) to attract prospects and clients that requires a bit of a different strategy to achieve success.

    Social media is no different than radio, TV, or print advertising–each medium has its own “rules” to follow to achieve the desired objectives.

    Again, great post Jason. This is something a LOT of people need to read/see/hear to get their heads out of the sand and quit preaching the “warm fuzzy” crap. Business execs don't want to hear or learn warm fuzzy BS–they want sales!

  • Spot on Jason . . . bravo!

    Many marketers and ad firms fail to realize advertising & marketing's #1 goal is simply to get more leads and customers (i.e. conversions). It's not to create a conversation and rub “warm fuzzies” all over one another because (as you so eloquently put it Jason) “a conversation never paid the damn electric bill.”

    We're all in the prospecting and client generation business regardless of what we sell . . . social media is just another “channel” (as Bart stated) to attract prospects and clients that requires a bit of a different strategy to achieve success.

    Social media is no different than radio, TV, or print advertising–each medium has its own “rules” to follow to achieve the desired objectives.

    Again, great post Jason. This is something a LOT of people need to read/see/hear to get their heads out of the sand and quit preaching the “warm fuzzy” crap. Business execs don't want to hear or learn warm fuzzy BS–they want sales!

    • Thanks, Roger. Appreciate the the comment and certainly agree.

  • Well said, Sean. Thanks for chiming in.

  • Well said, Sean. Thanks for chiming in.

  • Well said, Sean. Thanks for chiming in.

  • Touche' my friend. Touche'.

  • Touche' my friend. Touche'.

  • Touche' my friend. Touche'.

  • Thank you for the thoughts, Miki!

  • Thank you for the thoughts, Miki!

  • Thank you for the thoughts, Miki!

  • Thanks for taking the time and thought to respond. Excellent dialog going on here and I enjoy and respect your thinking reflected in many of your post. This post sparked me to draft a post titled “Drinking The Social Media Kool-Aid” which will be out maybe next week.

    The post isn't going to be what many may think rather my objective is to encouraging thinking. While all businesses want results and my career has been on teaching, guiding and facilitating organization to think “what and how do results get created”.

    In my humble option, and experience of 25 years dealing with corporate mindsets, most of the market wants results without understand, learning or thinking about “how” to create results consistently, effectively and aimed at what the buyer really wants. Social media is getting a bad name because most organizations thin of it as “just another marketing channel” rather than taking the time to understand that communications and relationships drive, influence and produce everything: the good, the bad and the ugly.

    Drinking social media Kool-Aid is largely an influence of what knowledge we “publish” to the marketplace. If all we publish focuses on “results” then the marketplace will just copy what others do to produce results. Copying isn't learning or creating new knowledge that can be applied systemically.

    Make sense? Your comments and insights are always appreciated….keep stirring up the thinking :)

  • Thanks for taking the time and thought to respond. Excellent dialog going on here and I enjoy and respect your thinking reflected in many of your post. This post sparked me to draft a post titled “Drinking The Social Media Kool-Aid” which will be out maybe next week.

    The post isn't going to be what many may think rather my objective is to encouraging thinking. While all businesses want results and my career has been on teaching, guiding and facilitating organization to think “what and how do results get created”.

    In my humble option, and experience of 25 years dealing with corporate mindsets, most of the market wants results without understand, learning or thinking about “how” to create results consistently, effectively and aimed at what the buyer really wants. Social media is getting a bad name because most organizations thin of it as “just another marketing channel” rather than taking the time to understand that communications and relationships drive, influence and produce everything: the good, the bad and the ugly.

    Drinking social media Kool-Aid is largely an influence of what knowledge we “publish” to the marketplace. If all we publish focuses on “results” then the marketplace will just copy what others do to produce results. Copying isn't learning or creating new knowledge that can be applied systemically.

    Make sense? Your comments and insights are always appreciated….keep stirring up the thinking :)

  • Thanks for taking the time and thought to respond. Excellent dialog going on here and I enjoy and respect your thinking reflected in many of your post. This post sparked me to draft a post titled “Drinking The Social Media Kool-Aid” which will be out maybe next week.

    The post isn't going to be what many may think rather my objective is to encouraging thinking. While all businesses want results and my career has been on teaching, guiding and facilitating organization to think “what and how do results get created”.

    In my humble option, and experience of 25 years dealing with corporate mindsets, most of the market wants results without understand, learning or thinking about “how” to create results consistently, effectively and aimed at what the buyer really wants. Social media is getting a bad name because most organizations thin of it as “just another marketing channel” rather than taking the time to understand that communications and relationships drive, influence and produce everything: the good, the bad and the ugly.

    Drinking social media Kool-Aid is largely an influence of what knowledge we “publish” to the marketplace. If all we publish focuses on “results” then the marketplace will just copy what others do to produce results. Copying isn't learning or creating new knowledge that can be applied systemically.

    Make sense? Your comments and insights are always appreciated….keep stirring up the thinking :)

  • Much appreciated Jeannie. And thanks for the examples of doing something other than direct sales that makes social media meaningful. Keep up the good work.

  • Much appreciated Jeannie. And thanks for the examples of doing something other than direct sales that makes social media meaningful. Keep up the good work.

  • Much appreciated Jeannie. And thanks for the examples of doing something other than direct sales that makes social media meaningful. Keep up the good work.

  • Thanks Brady. Appreciate the verification and additional thoughts!

  • Thanks Brady. Appreciate the verification and additional thoughts!

  • Thanks Brady. Appreciate the verification and additional thoughts!

  • bpluskowski

    Well put :) – always amazes me how so many people fail to focus on growing the bottom line as a way of driving change and achievement in big companies. You might be interested in this blog post I wrote in a similar vein around why companies shouldn't build online communities – http://wp.me/plxkn-95 – I think you'll see some similar thoughts in it:)

    Best Regards

    Boris Pluskowski
    http://www.completeinnovator.com

  • bpluskowski

    Well put :) – always amazes me how so many people fail to focus on growing the bottom line as a way of driving change and achievement in big companies. You might be interested in this blog post I wrote in a similar vein around why companies shouldn't build online communities – http://wp.me/plxkn-95 – I think you'll see some similar thoughts in it:)

    Best Regards

    Boris Pluskowski
    http://www.completeinnovator.com

  • bpluskowski

    Well put :) – always amazes me how so many people fail to focus on growing the bottom line as a way of driving change and achievement in big companies. You might be interested in this blog post I wrote in a similar vein around why companies shouldn't build online communities – http://wp.me/plxkn-95 – I think you'll see some similar thoughts in it:)

    Best Regards

    Boris Pluskowski
    http://www.completeinnovator.com

  • bpluskowski

    Well put :) – always amazes me how so many people fail to focus on growing the bottom line as a way of driving change and achievement in big companies. You might be interested in this blog post I wrote in a similar vein around why companies shouldn't build online communities – http://wp.me/plxkn-95 – I think you'll see some similar thoughts in it:)

    Best Regards

    Boris Pluskowski
    http://www.completeinnovator.com

    • Thanks for the link, Boris. I'll check it out as soon as I can.

  • Thanks Shelly. I think “bandwagon jumper oners” is my new favorite phrase. Well played.

    I think you hit upon a good notion there. I can't count the number of social media guru/expert/strategist/managers/whatevers are our there whose sole experience in being at said level for brands and companies is that they have a blog. You see it a lot of mommy bloggers, too. They got pitched by a few big companies and suddenly started charging for their time and became “consultants.” Few of them have marketing backgrounds or qualifications. Some of them have made a good living out of that scenario and have been resourceful enough to get smart and prove worth the investment, sure. But there are a lot of them out there who just say, “Gimme $5K and I'll have all my mommy friends write good stuff about your brand.”

    Not trying to pick on the moms. There are good ones out there who are consultants. There are good bloggers out there who know better, too. And there are plenty of those consultant types who aren't mommy bloggers or even women as well. That example just came to mind. (I'm sure someone will call me names for pointing it out that way. Wheeee.)

    Thanks for the thoughts!

  • Thanks Shelly. I think “bandwagon jumper oners” is my new favorite phrase. Well played.

    I think you hit upon a good notion there. I can't count the number of social media guru/expert/strategist/managers/whatevers are our there whose sole experience in being at said level for brands and companies is that they have a blog. You see it a lot of mommy bloggers, too. They got pitched by a few big companies and suddenly started charging for their time and became “consultants.” Few of them have marketing backgrounds or qualifications. Some of them have made a good living out of that scenario and have been resourceful enough to get smart and prove worth the investment, sure. But there are a lot of them out there who just say, “Gimme $5K and I'll have all my mommy friends write good stuff about your brand.”

    Not trying to pick on the moms. There are good ones out there who are consultants. There are good bloggers out there who know better, too. And there are plenty of those consultant types who aren't mommy bloggers or even women as well. That example just came to mind. (I'm sure someone will call me names for pointing it out that way. Wheeee.)

    Thanks for the thoughts!

  • Thanks Shelly. I think “bandwagon jumper oners” is my new favorite phrase. Well played.

    I think you hit upon a good notion there. I can't count the number of social media guru/expert/strategist/managers/whatevers are our there whose sole experience in being at said level for brands and companies is that they have a blog. You see it a lot of mommy bloggers, too. They got pitched by a few big companies and suddenly started charging for their time and became “consultants.” Few of them have marketing backgrounds or qualifications. Some of them have made a good living out of that scenario and have been resourceful enough to get smart and prove worth the investment, sure. But there are a lot of them out there who just say, “Gimme $5K and I'll have all my mommy friends write good stuff about your brand.”

    Not trying to pick on the moms. There are good ones out there who are consultants. There are good bloggers out there who know better, too. And there are plenty of those consultant types who aren't mommy bloggers or even women as well. That example just came to mind. (I'm sure someone will call me names for pointing it out that way. Wheeee.)

    Thanks for the thoughts!

  • The purists lose, and business wins. Always. Hence why Spam is still so pervasive. Because it works.

    Some companies can even just let their consumers lead the social cause. Look at Ford, no blogs. Look at Apple, no social.

    Great points Jason. When it comes to Business, it comes down to what moves the needle. If it is clear that the pretty, clean, transparent bubble of social media that we all love does not do that, then businesses could care less.

    I believe in the end though, the transparency and openness of social media will bleed into every company's marketing. In one way or another. It just might be a bit longer than we prefer.

  • The purists lose, and business wins. Always. Hence why Spam is still so pervasive. Because it works.

    Some companies can even just let their consumers lead the social cause. Look at Ford, no blogs. Look at Apple, no social.

    Great points Jason. When it comes to Business, it comes down to what moves the needle. If it is clear that the pretty, clean, transparent bubble of social media that we all love does not do that, then businesses could care less.

    I believe in the end though, the transparency and openness of social media will bleed into every company's marketing. In one way or another. It just might be a bit longer than we prefer.

  • The purists lose, and business wins. Always. Hence why Spam is still so pervasive. Because it works.

    Some companies can even just let their consumers lead the social cause. Look at Ford, no blogs. Look at Apple, no social.

    Great points Jason. When it comes to Business, it comes down to what moves the needle. If it is clear that the pretty, clean, transparent bubble of social media that we all love does not do that, then businesses could care less.

    I believe in the end though, the transparency and openness of social media will bleed into every company's marketing. In one way or another. It just might be a bit longer than we prefer.

  • The purists lose, and business wins. Always. Hence why Spam is still so pervasive. Because it works.

    Some companies can even just let their consumers lead the social cause. Look at Ford, no blogs. Look at Apple, no social.

    Great points Jason. When it comes to Business, it comes down to what moves the needle. If it is clear that the pretty, clean, transparent bubble of social media that we all love does not do that, then businesses could care less.

    I believe in the end though, the transparency and openness of social media will bleed into every company's marketing. In one way or another. It just might be a bit longer than we prefer.

    • Don't disagree, my friend. And I love the Ford/Apple references there. Business will drive business involvement. What consumers want will drive the individual. Sometimes the two worlds will intertwine nicely, too. Soon, that will be a most-case scenario. Thanks, bro.

  • Very useful response Jim. I love the Sales 101 lesson and know many of us on the marketing/PR/communications side that aren't focused directly on sales need to hear it more often as a reminder, if nothing else.

    I think the world we know has been led to believe sales is spammy, annoying and irrelevant because so many people have done it so poorly for so long. Car folks get the brunt end of that hate, but it's no different in many industries. Good salespeople never seem like they're selling. I would equate that quality to good social media marketers. You never realize they're connecting you to an idea, product or service. They're just someone you communicate with online who is helpful and provides value to the relationship.

    But you still have to measure their worth with what kind of business they bring you. And that's as parallel to sales as anything in the social realm.

    Thanks my friend. Good thoughts.

  • Very useful response Jim. I love the Sales 101 lesson and know many of us on the marketing/PR/communications side that aren't focused directly on sales need to hear it more often as a reminder, if nothing else.

    I think the world we know has been led to believe sales is spammy, annoying and irrelevant because so many people have done it so poorly for so long. Car folks get the brunt end of that hate, but it's no different in many industries. Good salespeople never seem like they're selling. I would equate that quality to good social media marketers. You never realize they're connecting you to an idea, product or service. They're just someone you communicate with online who is helpful and provides value to the relationship.

    But you still have to measure their worth with what kind of business they bring you. And that's as parallel to sales as anything in the social realm.

    Thanks my friend. Good thoughts.

  • Very useful response Jim. I love the Sales 101 lesson and know many of us on the marketing/PR/communications side that aren't focused directly on sales need to hear it more often as a reminder, if nothing else.

    I think the world we know has been led to believe sales is spammy, annoying and irrelevant because so many people have done it so poorly for so long. Car folks get the brunt end of that hate, but it's no different in many industries. Good salespeople never seem like they're selling. I would equate that quality to good social media marketers. You never realize they're connecting you to an idea, product or service. They're just someone you communicate with online who is helpful and provides value to the relationship.

    But you still have to measure their worth with what kind of business they bring you. And that's as parallel to sales as anything in the social realm.

    Thanks my friend. Good thoughts.

  • Thanks Eric. Well said.

  • Thanks Eric. Well said.

  • Thanks Eric. Well said.

  • Nicely played. It is true that there are goals other than selling things, but driving business … whatever that business may be … is the bottom line for any client, profit-driven or otherwise. Thanks Red.

  • Nicely played. It is true that there are goals other than selling things, but driving business … whatever that business may be … is the bottom line for any client, profit-driven or otherwise. Thanks Red.

  • Nicely played. It is true that there are goals other than selling things, but driving business … whatever that business may be … is the bottom line for any client, profit-driven or otherwise. Thanks Red.

  • I like it. Though I always kinda thought Townsend was a little on the soft side. Heh. Gimme an Ozzy or somethin' there. Heh. Thanks. Well said.

  • I like it. Though I always kinda thought Townsend was a little on the soft side. Heh. Gimme an Ozzy or somethin' there. Heh. Thanks. Well said.

  • I like it. Though I always kinda thought Townsend was a little on the soft side. Heh. Gimme an Ozzy or somethin' there. Heh. Thanks. Well said.

  • Not sure I would say social media is a tactic and that's all. But I see what you're saying. Social media strategies can help execute an overall marketing plan and they are one set of strategies/social media is one channel a company can use to accomplish its marketing goals. But social media can certainly be a strategy as well. Thanks, Faye.

  • Not sure I would say social media is a tactic and that's all. But I see what you're saying. Social media strategies can help execute an overall marketing plan and they are one set of strategies/social media is one channel a company can use to accomplish its marketing goals. But social media can certainly be a strategy as well. Thanks, Faye.

  • Not sure I would say social media is a tactic and that's all. But I see what you're saying. Social media strategies can help execute an overall marketing plan and they are one set of strategies/social media is one channel a company can use to accomplish its marketing goals. But social media can certainly be a strategy as well. Thanks, Faye.

  • Thanks, Charlie. Will check it out ASAP.

  • Thanks, Charlie. Will check it out ASAP.

  • Thanks, Charlie. Will check it out ASAP.

  • Thanks for the well thought response, Jay. Nice to see a reaction so well defined and argued.

    Honestly, I don't disagree with you. The issue at hand is far more complex than stop selling fluff and start selling product/service. Yes, investing in a social ecosystem around your brand is smart marketing for the reasons you mention. Building conversation points and engagement opportunities for your product or service facilitates the consumer need in this ever-changing marketplace.

    My intention with the post (beyond grabbing attention and driving conversation, which is always somewhere on the pecking order for me) was to point to the social media puritanical thinking that serves many as the reason they're listened to by the crowd. Not that the thinking is incorrect, but that there must be some underlying business value you provide beyond the conversation. Yes, the conversation is critical, but so is the transactional.

    The idea for this was wrought more out of the needs my clients express rather than what the social media blogosphere wants to hear. Those needs may change over time as the market proves both different and proves profitable for those engaging in it the way you suggest is necessary. But today, here and now, for businesses in need of social media strategy and guidance, there is a need for measures, impacts and results. And if we're not also taking that to bat with us, we're swinging with our hands.

    Thanks for the push back.

  • Thanks for the well thought response, Jay. Nice to see a reaction so well defined and argued.

    Honestly, I don't disagree with you. The issue at hand is far more complex than stop selling fluff and start selling product/service. Yes, investing in a social ecosystem around your brand is smart marketing for the reasons you mention. Building conversation points and engagement opportunities for your product or service facilitates the consumer need in this ever-changing marketplace.

    My intention with the post (beyond grabbing attention and driving conversation, which is always somewhere on the pecking order for me) was to point to the social media puritanical thinking that serves many as the reason they're listened to by the crowd. Not that the thinking is incorrect, but that there must be some underlying business value you provide beyond the conversation. Yes, the conversation is critical, but so is the transactional.

    The idea for this was wrought more out of the needs my clients express rather than what the social media blogosphere wants to hear. Those needs may change over time as the market proves both different and proves profitable for those engaging in it the way you suggest is necessary. But today, here and now, for businesses in need of social media strategy and guidance, there is a need for measures, impacts and results. And if we're not also taking that to bat with us, we're swinging with our hands.

    Thanks for the push back.

  • Thanks for the well thought response, Jay. Nice to see a reaction so well defined and argued.

    Honestly, I don't disagree with you. The issue at hand is far more complex than stop selling fluff and start selling product/service. Yes, investing in a social ecosystem around your brand is smart marketing for the reasons you mention. Building conversation points and engagement opportunities for your product or service facilitates the consumer need in this ever-changing marketplace.

    My intention with the post (beyond grabbing attention and driving conversation, which is always somewhere on the pecking order for me) was to point to the social media puritanical thinking that serves many as the reason they're listened to by the crowd. Not that the thinking is incorrect, but that there must be some underlying business value you provide beyond the conversation. Yes, the conversation is critical, but so is the transactional.

    The idea for this was wrought more out of the needs my clients express rather than what the social media blogosphere wants to hear. Those needs may change over time as the market proves both different and proves profitable for those engaging in it the way you suggest is necessary. But today, here and now, for businesses in need of social media strategy and guidance, there is a need for measures, impacts and results. And if we're not also taking that to bat with us, we're swinging with our hands.

    Thanks for the push back.

  • Beautiful! You're absolutely right. It's time to stop dodging the ROI question with new, shiny, fuzzy and ephemeral metrics and start producing the results companies need, expect and deserve.

    There is a difference between value and return-on-investment! Engagement, share of voice, etc all have value but it's nigh impossible to show ROI. Not trying to plug this but, I think this posting explains the POV quite well: http://bit.ly/4x0E32

  • Beautiful! You're absolutely right. It's time to stop dodging the ROI question with new, shiny, fuzzy and ephemeral metrics and start producing the results companies need, expect and deserve.

    There is a difference between value and return-on-investment! Engagement, share of voice, etc all have value but it's nigh impossible to show ROI. Not trying to plug this but, I think this posting explains the POV quite well: http://bit.ly/4x0E32

  • Beautiful! You're absolutely right. It's time to stop dodging the ROI question with new, shiny, fuzzy and ephemeral metrics and start producing the results companies need, expect and deserve.

    There is a difference between value and return-on-investment! Engagement, share of voice, etc all have value but it's nigh impossible to show ROI. Not trying to plug this but, I think this posting explains the POV quite well: http://bit.ly/4x0E32

  • Beautiful! You're absolutely right. It's time to stop dodging the ROI question with new, shiny, fuzzy and ephemeral metrics and start producing the results companies need, expect and deserve.

    There is a difference between value and return-on-investment! Engagement, share of voice, etc all have value but it's nigh impossible to show ROI. Not trying to plug this but, I think this posting explains the POV quite well: http://bit.ly/4x0E32

    • You're always welcome to drop relevant links, here my man. Appreciate the further discussion.

  • Pingback: Social Media Pragmatists beat Purists | FreshNetworks Blog()

  • Bart Vickers

    What a great, in-your-face, bound-to-drive-comments point of view. It's a little too much of the “blind men and the elephants” approach, though, assuming that the only business use of the social channel (yeah, it's a channel) is to sell. It's like saying that the only reason people watch TV is to be entertained.

    But the core of your message is sound. When social media experts don't base their consultations on the client's business goals and/or don't bother to measure and optimize the various tactics within the overall strategy, it will create a significant social backlash within the client's organization. The baby will be thrown out with the bathwater, and social efforts for that particular business, group, or brand will be stymied for a couple years.

  • Bart Vickers

    What a great, in-your-face, bound-to-drive-comments point of view. It's a little too much of the “blind men and the elephants” approach, though, assuming that the only business use of the social channel (yeah, it's a channel) is to sell. It's like saying that the only reason people watch TV is to be entertained.

    But the core of your message is sound. When social media experts don't base their consultations on the client's business goals and/or don't bother to measure and optimize the various tactics within the overall strategy, it will create a significant social backlash within the client's organization. The baby will be thrown out with the bathwater, and social efforts for that particular business, group, or brand will be stymied for a couple years.

  • Bart Vickers

    What a great, in-your-face, bound-to-drive-comments point of view. It's a little too much of the “blind men and the elephants” approach, though, assuming that the only business use of the social channel (yeah, it's a channel) is to sell. It's like saying that the only reason people watch TV is to be entertained.

    But the core of your message is sound. When social media experts don't base their consultations on the client's business goals and/or don't bother to measure and optimize the various tactics within the overall strategy, it will create a significant social backlash within the client's organization. The baby will be thrown out with the bathwater, and social efforts for that particular business, group, or brand will be stymied for a couple years.

  • Bart Vickers

    What a great, in-your-face, bound-to-drive-comments point of view. It's a little too much of the “blind men and the elephants” approach, though, assuming that the only business use of the social channel (yeah, it's a channel) is to sell. It's like saying that the only reason people watch TV is to be entertained.

    But the core of your message is sound. When social media experts don't base their consultations on the client's business goals and/or don't bother to measure and optimize the various tactics within the overall strategy, it will create a significant social backlash within the client's organization. The baby will be thrown out with the bathwater, and social efforts for that particular business, group, or brand will be stymied for a couple years.

    • Thank you, Bart, for seeing the point of the post through all the potentially emotional touch points. Appreciate the feedback.

  • Glad to know my consulting firm has been doing it right :) It's always about the bottom line for our clients

  • Glad to know my consulting firm has been doing it right :) It's always about the bottom line for our clients

  • Glad to know my consulting firm has been doing it right :) It's always about the bottom line for our clients

  • Glad to know my consulting firm has been doing it right :) It's always about the bottom line for our clients

  • I truly believe much of the 'purist' rhetoric has been BS all along. The strength in social media has always been choice and the power has always been on the consumer side. If your business wants to abuse social media… go ahead! You're not going to ruin social media for me, you're only going to taint your brand or your company. As a consumer, I'm free to follow who I want, when I want and engage when I feel like it. I'm empowered to make the choice.

    That gives businesses a 'free pass' to do whatever they would like to do. That said – they need to live with the repercussions as well. As a consultant working with various companies, that's the value I bring to the table. I can advise them on the mistakes others' have made and how to avoid them. I can provide them with information on how to leverage social media.

    Fantastic post, Jason!

  • I truly believe much of the 'purist' rhetoric has been BS all along. The strength in social media has always been choice and the power has always been on the consumer side. If your business wants to abuse social media… go ahead! You're not going to ruin social media for me, you're only going to taint your brand or your company. As a consumer, I'm free to follow who I want, when I want and engage when I feel like it. I'm empowered to make the choice.

    That gives businesses a 'free pass' to do whatever they would like to do. That said – they need to live with the repercussions as well. As a consultant working with various companies, that's the value I bring to the table. I can advise them on the mistakes others' have made and how to avoid them. I can provide them with information on how to leverage social media.

    Fantastic post, Jason!

  • I truly believe much of the 'purist' rhetoric has been BS all along. The strength in social media has always been choice and the power has always been on the consumer side. If your business wants to abuse social media… go ahead! You're not going to ruin social media for me, you're only going to taint your brand or your company. As a consumer, I'm free to follow who I want, when I want and engage when I feel like it. I'm empowered to make the choice.

    That gives businesses a 'free pass' to do whatever they would like to do. That said – they need to live with the repercussions as well. As a consultant working with various companies, that's the value I bring to the table. I can advise them on the mistakes others' have made and how to avoid them. I can provide them with information on how to leverage social media.

    Fantastic post, Jason!

  • I truly believe much of the 'purist' rhetoric has been BS all along. The strength in social media has always been choice and the power has always been on the consumer side. If your business wants to abuse social media… go ahead! You're not going to ruin social media for me, you're only going to taint your brand or your company. As a consumer, I'm free to follow who I want, when I want and converse when I feel like it. I'm empowered to make the choice.

    That give businesses a 'free pass' to do whatever they would like to do. That said – they need to live with the repercussions as well. As a consultant working with various companies, that's the value I bring to the table. I can advise them on the mistakes others' have made and how to avoid them. I can provide them with information on how to leverage social media.

    Fantastic post, Jason!

    • Thanks, Doug. The overriding thought the purists forget is that social media (and Internet marketing in general) is an opt-in marketplace. What's right for you may not be right for someone else, but it might still work for their audience. The high-horse riders need to remember that “rules” don't always apply. Then they might get it and actually help their clients beyond the conversation.

      Thanks, brotha.

  • susangosselin

    Amen, brother. The fact is, people want sales opportunities attached to their social media. There's just a couple rules to it– 1) it can't be all about the sales, unless you are putting together some kind of coupon, insider's special deal site and 2) you have to offer legitimately interesting info, with background and insights that will help the consumers with their decisions, or, connect them to like minded brand enthusiasts. Then when you attach you special offer with a link to ecommerce, you don't seem so obsequious.

  • susangosselin

    Amen, brother. The fact is, people want sales opportunities attached to their social media. There's just a couple rules to it– 1) it can't be all about the sales, unless you are putting together some kind of coupon, insider's special deal site and 2) you have to offer legitimately interesting info, with background and insights that will help the consumers with their decisions, or, connect them to like minded brand enthusiasts. Then when you attach you special offer with a link to ecommerce, you don't seem so obsequious.

  • susangosselin

    Amen, brother. The fact is, people want sales opportunities attached to their social media. There's just a couple rules to it– 1) it can't be all about the sales, unless you are putting together some kind of coupon, insider's special deal site and 2) you have to offer legitimately interesting info, with background and insights that will help the consumers with their decisions, or, connect them to like minded brand enthusiasts. Then when you attach you special offer with a link to ecommerce, you don't seem so obsequious.

  • susangosselin

    Amen, brother. The fact is, people want sales opportunities attached to their social media. There's just a couple rules to it– 1) it can't be all about the sales, unless you are putting together some kind of coupon, insider's special deal site and 2) you have to offer legitimately interesting info, with background and insights that will help the consumers with their decisions, or, connect them to like minded brand enthusiasts. Then when you attach you special offer with a link to ecommerce, you don't seem so obsequious.

    • Well said, Susan. Thanks for that. (Had to look up “obsequious” Heh.)

  • You're right that it is put up or shut up time for social media, but we have to be careful that we don't simply fall back on old ways (like advertising) and piss in the water cooler.

    A lot of organizations are dumbfounded by social media because customers have control of the megaphone. It is a dramatically different environment to market in. And that's the rub. You can't just jump in and expect to understand how to deploy SM for marketing right away. A lot of the passive engagement you correctly call out as ineffective is part of the cost of entry. The only way to really understand all these new tools is to use them for a while.

    For a lot of companies, 2010 is going to be about how to use SM effectively — to attract and pull customers up the escalator to make an actual purchase. That requires strategy and planning to create marketing campaigns which utilize social media, in contrast to the passive, ad hoc efforts that so far characterize many companies' initial forays into this new world.

  • You're right that it is put up or shut up time for social media, but we have to be careful that we don't simply fall back on old ways (like advertising) and piss in the water cooler.

    A lot of organizations are dumbfounded by social media because customers have control of the megaphone. It is a dramatically different environment to market in. And that's the rub. You can't just jump in and expect to understand how to deploy SM for marketing right away. A lot of the passive engagement you correctly call out as ineffective is part of the cost of entry. The only way to really understand all these new tools is to use them for a while.

    For a lot of companies, 2010 is going to be about how to use SM effectively — to attract and pull customers up the escalator to make an actual purchase. That requires strategy and planning to create marketing campaigns which utilize social media, in contrast to the passive, ad hoc efforts that so far characterize many companies' initial forays into this new world.

  • You're right that it is put up or shut up time for social media, but we have to be careful that we don't simply fall back on old ways (like advertising) and piss in the water cooler.

    A lot of organizations are dumbfounded by social media because customers have control of the megaphone. It is a dramatically different environment to market in. And that's the rub. You can't just jump in and expect to understand how to deploy SM for marketing right away. A lot of the passive engagement you correctly call out as ineffective is part of the cost of entry. The only way to really understand all these new tools is to use them for a while.

    For a lot of companies, 2010 is going to be about how to use SM effectively — to attract and pull customers up the escalator to make an actual purchase. That requires strategy and planning to create marketing campaigns which utilize social media, in contrast to the passive, ad hoc efforts that so far characterize many companies' initial forays into this new world.

  • You're right that it is put up or shut up time for social media, but we have to be careful that we don't simply fall back on old ways (like advertising) and piss in the water cooler.

    A lot of organizations are dumbfounded by social media because customers have control of the megaphone. It is a dramatically different environment to market in. And that's the rub. You can't just jump in and expect to understand how to deploy SM for marketing right away. A lot of the passive engagement you correctly call out as ineffective is part of the cost of entry. The only way to really understand all these new tools is to use them for a while.

    For a lot of companies, 2010 is going to be about how to use SM effectively — to attract and pull customers up the escalator to make an actual purchase. That requires strategy and planning to create marketing campaigns which utilize social media, in contrast to the passive, ad hoc efforts that so far characterize many companies' initial forays into this new world.

    • Your last paragraph is exactly what I've been telling people. Now we figure it out. Well done, John.

  • Thanks for this post Jason,

    I feel like I differentiate myself with my customers when I DON't go all pie in the sky re: social media.

    I want to talk about your business and what you want to achieve FIRST. Then and only then can we design a strategic online marketing / emerging media approach.

    Keep your eye on where you want to go, then put the puzzle pieces together to get you there.

    I am sharing your post with my current and potential customers to say, “SEE – this is what I am talking about!”

  • Thanks for this post Jason,

    I feel like I differentiate myself with my customers when I DON't go all pie in the sky re: social media.

    I want to talk about your business and what you want to achieve FIRST. Then and only then can we design a strategic online marketing / emerging media approach.

    Keep your eye on where you want to go, then put the puzzle pieces together to get you there.

    I am sharing your post with my current and potential customers to say, “SEE – this is what I am talking about!”

  • Thanks for this post Jason,

    I feel like I differentiate myself with my customers when I DON't go all pie in the sky re: social media.

    I want to talk about your business and what you want to achieve FIRST. Then and only then can we design a strategic online marketing / emerging media approach.

    Keep your eye on where you want to go, then put the puzzle pieces together to get you there.

    I am sharing your post with my current and potential customers to say, “SEE – this is what I am talking about!”

  • Thanks for this post Jason,

    I feel like I differentiate myself with my customers when I DON't go all pie in the sky re: social media.

    I want to talk about your business and what you want to achieve FIRST. Then and only then can we design a strategic online marketing / emerging media approach.

    Keep your eye on where you want to go, then put the puzzle pieces together to get you there.

    I am sharing your post with my current and potential customers to say, “SEE – this is what I am talking about!”

    • Honored you would to so, Tobin. Thank you!

  • I suppose what is often lost in the “markets are conversations” homilies is the notion that “What can I do to improve my product” and “Here's what we're doing to entice you to buy” are legitimate topics of conversation. If I don't want to discuss these subject with a company, I'm under no obligation to do so.

    The real revolution of social media is that it's a a permission-based dialogue. You don't get to shove ads down my throat (permission based, not interrupt-driven) and you have to listen as well as speak (dialogue, not monologue). That's a revolutionary improvement from the consumer's point of view. You don't have to throw some vow of commercial chastity on top of that to maintain your social media purity. In fact, you shouldn't.

    Social media doesn't mean an absence of calls to action. It doesn't mean you don't talk business or sales or product. It means that you're human, honest, and accessible when you have those conversations.

  • I suppose what is often lost in the “markets are conversations” homilies is the notion that “What can I do to improve my product” and “Here's what we're doing to entice you to buy” are legitimate topics of conversation. If I don't want to discuss these subject with a company, I'm under no obligation to do so.

    The real revolution of social media is that it's a a permission-based dialogue. You don't get to shove ads down my throat (permission based, not interrupt-driven) and you have to listen as well as speak (dialogue, not monologue). That's a revolutionary improvement from the consumer's point of view. You don't have to throw some vow of commercial chastity on top of that to maintain your social media purity. In fact, you shouldn't.

    Social media doesn't mean an absence of calls to action. It doesn't mean you don't talk business or sales or product. It means that you're human, honest, and accessible when you have those conversations.

  • I suppose what is often lost in the “markets are conversations” homilies is the notion that “What can I do to improve my product” and “Here's what we're doing to entice you to buy” are legitimate topics of conversation. If I don't want to discuss these subject with a company, I'm under no obligation to do so.

    The real revolution of social media is that it's a a permission-based dialogue. You don't get to shove ads down my throat (permission based, not interrupt-driven) and you have to listen as well as speak (dialogue, not monologue). That's a revolutionary improvement from the consumer's point of view. You don't have to throw some vow of commercial chastity on top of that to maintain your social media purity. In fact, you shouldn't.

    Social media doesn't mean an absence of calls to action. It doesn't mean you don't talk business or sales or product. It means that you're human, honest, and accessible when you have those conversations.

  • I suppose what is often lost in the “markets are conversations” homilies is the notion that “What can I do to improve my product” and “Here's what we're doing to entice you to buy” are legitimate topics of conversation. If I don't want to discuss these subject with a company, I'm under no obligation to do so.

    The real revolution of social media is that it's a a permission-based dialogue. You don't get to shove ads down my throat (permission based, not interrupt-driven) and you have to listen as well as speak (dialogue, not monologue). That's a revolutionary improvement from the consumer's point of view. You don't have to throw some vow of commercial chastity on top of that to maintain your social media purity. In fact, you shouldn't.

    Social media doesn't mean an absence of calls to action. It doesn't mean you don't talk business or sales or product. It means that you're human, honest, and accessible when you have those conversations.

    • Further evidence you should blog more often, my friend. Well said.

  • seanwilliams

    Jason, thanks for stating what should be common knowledge, but isn't. I'd amend things slightly by differentiating between marketing and other forms of communication. The quality of an organization's social media interaction may have impact on reputation measures unrelated to strict sales. We know that companies (for example) with excellent reputations tend to be more successful that those without, but great reputation won't save you if quality plunges, service suffers or you lose touch with your customers.

    Social media has the potential to help in addressing those types of issue. It's true that some organizations aren't “selling” products and services — such as a regional Federal Reserve Bank. True, they may be selling expertise or research and seeking influence, but that's not as easy a calculation as impact on sales.

    The concept of strategy says that each element of the communication mix has a role, and social media is one element where the role is still being defined.

  • seanwilliams

    Jason, thanks for stating what should be common knowledge, but isn't. I'd amend things slightly by differentiating between marketing and other forms of communication. The quality of an organization's social media interaction may have impact on reputation measures unrelated to strict sales. We know that companies (for example) with excellent reputations tend to be more successful that those without, but great reputation won't save you if quality plunges, service suffers or you lose touch with your customers.

    Social media has the potential to help in addressing those types of issue. It's true that some organizations aren't “selling” products and services — such as a regional Federal Reserve Bank. True, they may be selling expertise or research and seeking influence, but that's not as easy a calculation as impact on sales.

    The concept of strategy says that each element of the communication mix has a role, and social media is one element where the role is still being defined.

  • seanwilliams

    Jason, thanks for stating what should be common knowledge, but isn't. I'd amend things slightly by differentiating between marketing and other forms of communication. The quality of an organization's social media interaction may have impact on reputation measures unrelated to strict sales. We know that companies (for example) with excellent reputations tend to be more successful that those without, but great reputation won't save you if quality plunges, service suffers or you lose touch with your customers.

    Social media has the potential to help in addressing those types of issue. It's true that some organizations aren't “selling” products and services — such as a regional Federal Reserve Bank. True, they may be selling expertise or research and seeking influence, but that's not as easy a calculation as impact on sales.

    The concept of strategy says that each element of the communication mix has a role, and social media is one element where the role is still being defined.

  • seanwilliams

    Jason, thanks for stating what should be common knowledge, but isn't. I'd amend things slightly by differentiating between marketing and other forms of communication. The quality of an organization's social media interaction may have impact on reputation measures unrelated to strict sales. We know that companies (for example) with excellent reputations tend to be more successful that those without, but great reputation won't save you if quality plunges, service suffers or you lose touch with your customers.

    Social media has the potential to help in addressing those types of issue. It's true that some organizations aren't “selling” products and services — such as a regional Federal Reserve Bank. True, they may be selling expertise or research and seeking influence, but that's not as easy a calculation as impact on sales.

    The concept of strategy says that each element of the communication mix has a role, and social media is one element where the role is still being defined.

    • Well said, Sean. Thanks for chiming in.

  • erikdeckers

    I've been making the same arguments about ghost blogging, something which you've addressed in the past, something that has generated a lot of heat up here in Indianapolis. The purists are free to complain about the authenticity of ghost blogging; my only concern is the authenticity of the check my clients pay me with.

  • erikdeckers

    I've been making the same arguments about ghost blogging, something which you've addressed in the past, something that has generated a lot of heat up here in Indianapolis. The purists are free to complain about the authenticity of ghost blogging; my only concern is the authenticity of the check my clients pay me with.

  • erikdeckers

    I've been making the same arguments about ghost blogging, something which you've addressed in the past, something that has generated a lot of heat up here in Indianapolis. The purists are free to complain about the authenticity of ghost blogging; my only concern is the authenticity of the check my clients pay me with.

  • erikdeckers

    I've been making the same arguments about ghost blogging, something which you've addressed in the past, something that has generated a lot of heat up here in Indianapolis. The purists are free to complain about the authenticity of ghost blogging; my only concern is the authenticity of the check my clients pay me with.

    • Touche' my friend. Touche'.

    • I am strictly against ghost blogging merely as a matter of principle. However, if it works for the business and the audience is satisfied, who's to care?

      However, the question must be begged, if a VP or a CEO can't pen together a sentence in 140 characters or share a short story on a blog; why are they even at that position? I'm just saying, it goes both ways. There are many easy ways to produce content … video, audio, transcription through an assistant, etc.

      ~joe

  • Hi Jason,

    I was smiling to myself as I read your post, because I agree with almost everything you wrote. Although I am currently still a student, I hold a relatively more pragmatic view for social media.

    Social media definitely has its pros & cons. Even though the effectiveness of social media is frequently being questioned, I see that it can still be effective if it serves a purpose & meets the objectives. But of course, I agree that we all have to make money in the end. I still believe that if utilized well, social media can support the whole thing – brand or campaign, and definitely, there are some cases we all know about.

    So, I really like your paragraph that call for action. If we can utilize it the right way and stay focus, it can be a powerful medium.

    Thanks for the post. Much appreciated.

    Miki Sim (@dooodleslove)

  • Hi Jason,

    I was smiling to myself as I read your post, because I agree with almost everything you wrote. Although I am currently still a student, I hold a relatively more pragmatic view for social media.

    Social media definitely has its pros & cons. Even though the effectiveness of social media is frequently being questioned, I see that it can still be effective if it serves a purpose & meets the objectives. But of course, I agree that we all have to make money in the end. I still believe that if utilized well, social media can support the whole thing – brand or campaign, and definitely, there are some cases we all know about.

    So, I really like your paragraph that call for action. If we can utilize it the right way and stay focus, it can be a powerful medium.

    Thanks for the post. Much appreciated.

    Miki Sim (@dooodleslove)

  • Hi Jason,

    I was smiling to myself as I read your post, because I agree with almost everything you wrote. Although I am currently still a student, I hold a relatively more pragmatic view for social media.

    Social media definitely has its pros & cons. Even though the effectiveness of social media is frequently being questioned, I see that it can still be effective if it serves a purpose & meets the objectives. But of course, I agree that we all have to make money in the end. I still believe that if utilized well, social media can support the whole thing – brand or campaign, and definitely, there are some cases we all know about.

    So, I really like your paragraph that call for action. If we can utilize it the right way and stay focus, it can be a powerful medium.

    Thanks for the post. Much appreciated.

    Miki Sim (@dooodleslove)

  • Hi Jason,

    I was smiling to myself as I read your post, because I agree with almost everything you wrote. Although I am currently still a student, I hold a relatively more pragmatic view for social media.

    Social media definitely has its pros & cons. Even though the effectiveness of social media is frequently being questioned, I see that it can still be effective if it serves a purpose & meets the objectives. But of course, I agree that we all have to make money in the end. I still believe that if utilized well, social media can support the whole thing – brand or campaign, and definitely, there are some cases we all know about.

    So, I really like your paragraph that call for action. If we can utilize it the right way and stay focus, it can be a powerful medium.

    Thanks for the post. Much appreciated.

    Miki Sim (@dooodleslove)

  • You're right about all of this, Jason. I believe many of the social-media-consultants-in-sheep's-clothing will be replaced by the real wolves of the pack. And of course I agree with Shelly and would take it a step farther to say there is a spectrum of expertise needed to harness the real power of social media. It's a mode of communication. (I'm of course saying this because I use social media as a way to enhance the customer experience and move the needle on retention, cross selling, etc. – my personal expertise.) While there is need for marketers, salespeople, etc. there's also a need to have a wide variety of folks do what they do best and use social media as a tool – not towards an end result of jibber jabber.
    Kudos! Great post!

  • You're right about all of this, Jason. I believe many of the social-media-consultants-in-sheep's-clothing will be replaced by the real wolves of the pack. And of course I agree with Shelly and would take it a step farther to say there is a spectrum of expertise needed to harness the real power of social media. It's a mode of communication. (I'm of course saying this because I use social media as a way to enhance the customer experience and move the needle on retention, cross selling, etc. – my personal expertise.) While there is need for marketers, salespeople, etc. there's also a need to have a wide variety of folks do what they do best and use social media as a tool – not towards an end result of jibber jabber.
    Kudos! Great post!

  • You're right about all of this, Jason. I believe many of the social-media-consultants-in-sheep's-clothing will be replaced by the real wolves of the pack. And of course I agree with Shelly and would take it a step farther to say there is a spectrum of expertise needed to harness the real power of social media. It's a mode of communication. (I'm of course saying this because I use social media as a way to enhance the customer experience and move the needle on retention, cross selling, etc. – my personal expertise.) While there is need for marketers, salespeople, etc. there's also a need to have a wide variety of folks do what they do best and use social media as a tool – not towards an end result of jibber jabber.
    Kudos! Great post!

  • You're right about all of this, Jason. I believe many of the social-media-consultants-in-sheep's-clothing will be replaced by the real wolves of the pack. And of course I agree with Shelly and would take it a step farther to say there is a spectrum of expertise needed to harness the real power of social media. It's a mode of communication. (I'm of course saying this because I use social media as a way to enhance the customer experience and move the needle on retention, cross selling, etc. – my personal expertise.) While there is need for marketers, salespeople, etc. there's also a need to have a wide variety of folks do what they do best and use social media as a tool – not towards an end result of jibber jabber.
    Kudos! Great post!

    • Much appreciated Jeannie. And thanks for the examples of doing something other than direct sales that makes social media meaningful. Keep up the good work.

  • bradycohen

    Jason,

    You won't hear me arguing your points. Any dollars going towards marketing need to be justified in one way or another. I recently read an article that suggested almost 75% of marketers don't have full-time resources managing web analytics. Many also don't understand them. I think there is a fear of what will be found when studying web analytics. I say this because I've had multiple clients tell me they are concerned they might find something in the data/insights that goes against what their gut has been telling them. They don't want to be called out and have been wrong in their gut instincts.

    All 'commercialized' social media should be connected/integrated with a greater online strategy and have a company's key web property as the centerpiece. If 3 out of 4 companies don't have a web analytics resource paying attention to what is happening on their site, they don't know where people are coming in from (Facebook, Twitter, etc.). Or, what they are doing on the site.

    My point here is that there are hard metrics around everything social media offers. Marketers must first identify their goals and objectives and have alignment with what success will look like. A dashboard can then be developed to track performance of any marketing effort. You may need to get creative to figure out how to measure certain elements but it can be done. Testing should always be included in order to understand what is working and what is not.

    Like I said at the outset of my comments, you won't hear an argument from me when it comes to the topic of accountability and driving ROI. I'm all for it and kudos to you for your post.

    Brady

  • bradycohen

    Jason,

    You won't hear me arguing your points. Any dollars going towards marketing need to be justified in one way or another. I recently read an article that suggested almost 75% of marketers don't have full-time resources managing web analytics. Many also don't understand them. I think there is a fear of what will be found when studying web analytics. I say this because I've had multiple clients tell me they are concerned they might find something in the data/insights that goes against what their gut has been telling them. They don't want to be called out and have been wrong in their gut instincts.

    All 'commercialized' social media should be connected/integrated with a greater online strategy and have a company's key web property as the centerpiece. If 3 out of 4 companies don't have a web analytics resource paying attention to what is happening on their site, they don't know where people are coming in from (Facebook, Twitter, etc.). Or, what they are doing on the site.

    My point here is that there are hard metrics around everything social media offers. Marketers must first identify their goals and objectives and have alignment with what success will look like. A dashboard can then be developed to track performance of any marketing effort. You may need to get creative to figure out how to measure certain elements but it can be done. Testing should always be included in order to understand what is working and what is not.

    Like I said at the outset of my comments, you won't hear an argument from me when it comes to the topic of accountability and driving ROI. I'm all for it and kudos to you for your post.

    Brady

  • bradycohen

    Jason,

    You won't hear me arguing your points. Any dollars going towards marketing need to be justified in one way or another. I recently read an article that suggested almost 75% of marketers don't have full-time resources managing web analytics. Many also don't understand them. I think there is a fear of what will be found when studying web analytics. I say this because I've had multiple clients tell me they are concerned they might find something in the data/insights that goes against what their gut has been telling them. They don't want to be called out and have been wrong in their gut instincts.

    All 'commercialized' social media should be connected/integrated with a greater online strategy and have a company's key web property as the centerpiece. If 3 out of 4 companies don't have a web analytics resource paying attention to what is happening on their site, they don't know where people are coming in from (Facebook, Twitter, etc.). Or, what they are doing on the site.

    My point here is that there are hard metrics around everything social media offers. Marketers must first identify their goals and objectives and have alignment with what success will look like. A dashboard can then be developed to track performance of any marketing effort. You may need to get creative to figure out how to measure certain elements but it can be done. Testing should always be included in order to understand what is working and what is not.

    Like I said at the outset of my comments, you won't hear an argument from me when it comes to the topic of accountability and driving ROI. I'm all for it and kudos to you for your post.

    Brady

  • bradycohen

    Jason,

    You won't hear me arguing your points. Any dollars going towards marketing need to be justified in one way or another. I recently read an article that suggested almost 75% of marketers don't have full-time resources managing web analytics. Many also don't understand them. I think there is a fear of what will be found when studying web analytics. I say this because I've had multiple clients tell me they are concerned they might find something in the data/insights that goes against what their gut has been telling them. They don't want to be called out and have been wrong in their gut instincts.

    All 'commercialized' social media should be connected/integrated with a greater online strategy and have a company's key web property as the centerpiece. If 3 out of 4 companies don't have a web analytics resource paying attention to what is happening on their site, they don't know where people are coming in from (Facebook, Twitter, etc.). Or, what they are doing on the site.

    My point here is that there are hard metrics around everything social media offers. Marketers must first identify their goals and objectives and have alignment with what success will look like. A dashboard can then be developed to track performance of any marketing effort. You may need to get creative to figure out how to measure certain elements but it can be done. Testing should always be included in order to understand what is working and what is not.

    Like I said at the outset of my comments, you won't hear an argument from me when it comes to the topic of accountability and driving ROI. I'm all for it and kudos to you for your post.

    Brady

    • Thanks Brady. Appreciate the verification and additional thoughts!

  • ShellyKramer

    Excellent post, Jason. And you are absolutely correct. That's why many of the so-called social media gurus, experts, jedis and evangelists will ultimately fail. They are not marketers. They are bandwagon jumper oners (made that one up, just for you) trying to take advantage of new and relatively unknown mediums and oftentimes, the people who buy into their claims have no idea that they know absolutely nothing about traditional marketing. Social mediums are and can be effective, but they must be tied to strategic thinking and integrated into other marketing tactics in order to be effective – and to make the cash register ring. That, after all, is what it's all about.

    Absolutely spot-on assessment of the situation – thank you for sharing.

  • ShellyKramer

    Excellent post, Jason. And you are absolutely correct. That's why many of the so-called social media gurus, experts, jedis and evangelists will ultimately fail. They are not marketers. They are bandwagon jumper oners (made that one up, just for you) trying to take advantage of new and relatively unknown mediums and oftentimes, the people who buy into their claims have no idea that they know absolutely nothing about traditional marketing. Social mediums are and can be effective, but they must be tied to strategic thinking and integrated into other marketing tactics in order to be effective – and to make the cash register ring. That, after all, is what it's all about.

    Absolutely spot-on assessment of the situation – thank you for sharing.

  • ShellyKramer

    Excellent post, Jason. And you are absolutely correct. That's why many of the so-called social media gurus, experts, jedis and evangelists will ultimately fail. They are not marketers. They are bandwagon jumper oners (made that one up, just for you) trying to take advantage of new and relatively unknown mediums and oftentimes, the people who buy into their claims have no idea that they know absolutely nothing about traditional marketing. Social mediums are and can be effective, but they must be tied to strategic thinking and integrated into other marketing tactics in order to be effective – and to make the cash register ring. That, after all, is what it's all about.

    Absolutely spot-on assessment of the situation – thank you for sharing.

  • ShellyKramer

    Excellent post, Jason. And you are absolutely correct. That's why many of the so-called social media gurus, experts, jedis and evangelists will ultimately fail. They are not marketers. They are bandwagon jumper oners (made that one up, just for you) trying to take advantage of new and relatively unknown mediums and oftentimes, the people who buy into their claims have no idea that they know absolutely nothing about traditional marketing. Social mediums are and can be effective, but they must be tied to strategic thinking and integrated into other marketing tactics in order to be effective – and to make the cash register ring. That, after all, is what it's all about.

    Absolutely spot-on assessment of the situation – thank you for sharing.

    • Thanks Shelly. I think “bandwagon jumper oners” is my new favorite phrase. Well played.

      I think you hit upon a good notion there. I can't count the number of social media guru/expert/strategist/managers/whatevers are our there whose sole experience in being at said level for brands and companies is that they have a blog. You see it a lot of mommy bloggers, too. They got pitched by a few big companies and suddenly started charging for their time and became “consultants.” Few of them have marketing backgrounds or qualifications. Some of them have made a good living out of that scenario and have been resourceful enough to get smart and prove worth the investment, sure. But there are a lot of them out there who just say, “Gimme $5K and I'll have all my mommy friends write good stuff about your brand.”

      Not trying to pick on the moms. There are good ones out there who are consultants. There are good bloggers out there who know better, too. And there are plenty of those consultant types who aren't mommy bloggers or even women as well. That example just came to mind. (I'm sure someone will call me names for pointing it out that way. Wheeee.)

      Thanks for the thoughts!

    • Shelly, you and Jason are right on. This is one of the truisms that has become abundantly clear to me since entering the agency world. Conversation alone is just that. Must be integrated with some call to action. And call to action needs conversation too. Without it, call to action is one-way marketing and closing in on what some call spam.

      Jason, I will argue one point with you. Conversations do indeed ring the cash register and engagement does sell product. The problem is its damn-near impossible to measure the correlation.

      I flew Southwest Airlines initially because the fares were chaep. But I have formed an affinity to Southwest, champion them at any chance I get and try to never fly any other airline (except when I have to for work) because of the people and the experience, both online and offline.
      For those reasons, I will fly Southwest over another airline even if it's a bit more expensive. But how is Southwest supposed to know that (unless they read this comment and one like it for all similar cases) or track when I made that conscious decision.

      Finding that ROI isn't worth the effort, isn't exact and doesn't translate to the “what have you done for me lately” business world we live in. But that doesn't mean that ROI doesn't exist. Great post. A topic all PR pros need to consider. Welcome your thoughts.

      • Great thoughts here. I once would have agreed with you whole-heartedly
        on the immeasureablity of ROI in social media. But the more I work
        with clients, the more I realize that as long as you have a good idea
        of what you want to measure, then connecting the dots is not has hard
        as you might think. Yes, I agree that the true, lasting and universal
        impact of any conversation anywhere is impossible to track and measure
        and directly connect to the bottom line, but if you are trying to
        measure social media's impact on your online sales, for instance, you
        can present calls to action in your social channels, traceable and
        trackable to your conversion points on your website and have a direct
        connection. Will it be 100-percent inclusive? No. (I can remember to
        go to your website because of a conversation on Twitter, but not
        click a link.) But it at least can give you a minimal measure. Move
        that needle and you're going to impress your clients/bosses.

        Thanks for the thoughts!

  • I'm no social media purist. I'm the guy “your (social media) mother warned you about.” I'm a sales purist. Been in sales all my life. But I'm also a social media/networking evangelist. Why? So glad you asked…. because it feeds the sales process. No sale happens without prospects. THAT is what social media (for business specifically) brings to the table. How you treat your prospects circles you all the way back to sales 101… please allow me to explain… and this does actually feed back into the hippie (social media purist) state of mind (heck.. I have facial hair.)

    Sales 101:
    – Meet and Greet (friend request)
    – Build raport (LISTEN, ENGAGE and find common ground
    – Assess needs (ask questions.. then shut up and listen)
    – Align solution with needs. (Requires interaction via engagement)
    – Test close to be sure your on target (again requires engagement)
    – Close the deal: Ask for the biz

    People need to quit hate'n on salespeople. I'm an ex car guy… believe me… I understand where the bad rap comes from. However, and I hope folks agree; commerce makes the world go round. After looking up the exact definition of “commerce” to be sure I was speaking accurately, I'm a bit shocked at how the various meanings of commerce actually apply to this discussion. I was was referring to definition 1. But 2 and 4 actually speak to the social media purist. But, I think number 3 is illegal in most states. LOL .. see for yourself: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/commerce

    ok.. I'm losing my train of thought and running low on time. Need to get back to work. One question though:

    How many of you shudder at the idea of me posting here with an avatar reflecting my BRAND?!?!?!? Be honest.

    Thanks, Jason. This was fun. And.. I know you are “listening” because you actually reply to comments. Kudos.

  • I'm no social media purist. I'm the guy “your (social media) mother warned you about.” I'm a sales purist. Been in sales all my life. But I'm also a social media/networking evangelist. Why? So glad you asked…. because it feeds the sales process. No sale happens without prospects. THAT is what social media (for business specifically) brings to the table. How you treat your prospects circles you all the way back to sales 101… please allow me to explain… and this does actually feed back into the hippie (social media purist) state of mind (heck.. I have facial hair.)

    Sales 101:
    – Meet and Greet (friend request)
    – Build raport (LISTEN, ENGAGE and find common ground
    – Assess needs (ask questions.. then shut up and listen)
    – Align solution with needs. (Requires interaction via engagement)
    – Test close to be sure your on target (again requires engagement)
    – Close the deal: Ask for the biz

    People need to quit hate'n on salespeople. I'm an ex car guy… believe me… I understand where the bad rap comes from. However, and I hope folks agree; commerce makes the world go round. After looking up the exact definition of “commerce” to be sure I was speaking accurately, I'm a bit shocked at how the various meanings of commerce actually apply to this discussion. I was was referring to definition 1. But 2 and 4 actually speak to the social media purist. But, I think number 3 is illegal in most states. LOL .. see for yourself: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/commerce

    ok.. I'm losing my train of thought and running low on time. Need to get back to work. One question though:

    How many of you shudder at the idea of me posting here with an avatar reflecting my BRAND?!?!?!? Be honest.

    Thanks, Jason. This was fun. And.. I know you are “listening” because you actually reply to comments. Kudos.

  • I'm no social media purist. I'm the guy “your (social media) mother warned you about.” I'm a sales purist. Been in sales all my life. But I'm also a social media/networking evangelist. Why? So glad you asked…. because it feeds the sales process. No sale happens without prospects. THAT is what social media (for business specifically) brings to the table. How you treat your prospects circles you all the way back to sales 101… please allow me to explain… and this does actually feed back into the hippie (social media purist) state of mind (heck.. I have facial hair.)

    Sales 101:
    – Meet and Greet (friend request)
    – Build raport (LISTEN, ENGAGE and find common ground
    – Assess needs (ask questions.. then shut up and listen)
    – Align solution with needs. (Requires interaction via engagement)
    – Test close to be sure your on target (again requires engagement)
    – Close the deal: Ask for the biz

    People need to quit hate'n on salespeople. I'm an ex car guy… believe me… I understand where the bad rap comes from. However, and I hope folks agree; commerce makes the world go round. After looking up the exact definition of “commerce” to be sure I was speaking accurately, I'm a bit shocked at how the various meanings of commerce actually apply to this discussion. I was was referring to definition 1. But 2 and 4 actually speak to the social media purist. But, I think number 3 is illegal in most states. LOL .. see for yourself: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/commerce

    ok.. I'm losing my train of thought and running low on time. Need to get back to work. One question though:

    How many of you shudder at the idea of me posting here with an avatar reflecting my BRAND?!?!?!? Be honest.

    Thanks, Jason. This was fun. And.. I know you are “listening” because you actually reply to comments. Kudos.

  • I'm no social media purist. I'm the guy “your (social media) mother warned you about.” I'm a sales purist. Been in sales all my life. But I'm also a social media/networking evangelist. Why? So glad you asked…. because it feeds the sales process. No sale happens without prospects. THAT is what social media (for business specifically) brings to the table. How you treat your prospects circles you all the way back to sales 101… please allow me to explain… and this does actually feed back into the hippie (social media purist) state of mind (heck.. I have facial hair.)

    Sales 101:
    – Meet and Greet (friend request)
    – Build raport (LISTEN, ENGAGE and find common ground
    – Assess needs (ask questions.. then shut up and listen)
    – Align solution with needs. (Requires interaction via engagement)
    – Test close to be sure your on target (again requires engagement)
    – Close the deal: Ask for the biz

    People need to quit hate'n on salespeople. I'm an ex car guy… believe me… I understand where the bad rap comes from. However, and I hope folks agree; commerce makes the world go round. After looking up the exact definition of “commerce” to be sure I was speaking accurately, I'm a bit shocked at how the various meanings of commerce actually apply to this discussion. I was was referring to definition 1. But 2 and 4 actually speak to the social media purist. But, I think number 3 is illegal in most states. LOL .. see for yourself: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/commerce

    ok.. I'm losing my train of thought and running low on time. Need to get back to work. One question though:

    How many of you shudder at the idea of me posting here with an avatar reflecting my BRAND?!?!?!? Be honest.

    Thanks, Jason. This was fun. And.. I know you are “listening” because you actually reply to comments. Kudos.

  • I'm no social media purist. I'm the guy “your (social media) mother warned you about.” I'm a sales purist. Been in sales all my life. But I'm also a social media/networking evangelist. Why? So glad you asked…. because it feeds the sales process. No sale happens without prospects. THAT is what social media (for business specifically) brings to the table. How you treat your prospects circles you all the way back to sales 101… please allow me to explain… and this does actually feed back into the hippie (social media purist) state of mind (heck.. I have facial hair.)

    Sales 101:
    – Meet and Greet (friend request)
    – Build raport (LISTEN, ENGAGE and find common ground
    – Assess needs (ask questions.. then shut up and listen)
    – Align solution with needs. (Requires interaction via engagement)
    – Test close to be sure your on target (again requires engagement)
    – Close the deal: Ask for the biz

    People need to quit hate'n on salespeople. I'm an ex car guy… believe me… I understand where the bad rap comes from. However, and I hope folks agree; commerce makes the world go round. After looking up the exact definition of “commerce” to be sure I was speaking accurately, I'm a bit shocked at how the various meanings of commerce actually apply to this discussion. I was was referring to definition 1. But 2 and 4 actually speak to the social media purist. But, I think number 3 is illegal in most states. LOL .. see for yourself: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/commerce

    ok.. I'm losing my train of thought and running low on time. Need to get back to work. One question though:

    How many of you shudder at the idea of me posting here with an avatar reflecting my BRAND?!?!?!? Be honest.

    Thanks, Jason. This was fun. And.. I know you are “listening” because you actually reply to comments. Kudos.

  • I'm no social media purist. I'm the guy “your (social media) mother warned you about.” I'm a sales purist. Been in sales all my life. But I'm also a social media/networking evangelist. Why? So glad you asked…. because it feeds the sales process. No sale happens without prospects. THAT is what social media (for business specifically) brings to the table. How you treat your prospects circles you all the way back to sales 101… please allow me to explain… and this does actually feed back into the hippie (social media purist) state of mind (heck.. I have facial hair.)

    Sales 101:
    – Meet and Greet (friend request)
    – Build raport (LISTEN, ENGAGE and find common ground
    – Assess needs (ask questions.. then shut up and listen)
    – Align solution with needs. (Requires interaction via engagement)
    – Test close to be sure your on target (again requires engagement)
    – Close the deal: Ask for the biz

    People need to quit hate'n on salespeople. I'm an ex car guy… believe me… I understand where the bad rap comes from. However, and I hope folks agree; commerce makes the world go round. After looking up the exact definition of “commerce” to be sure I was speaking accurately, I'm a bit shocked at how the various meanings of commerce actually apply to this discussion. I was was referring to definition 1. But 2 and 4 actually speak to the social media purist. But, I think number 3 is illegal in most states. LOL .. see for yourself: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/commerce

    ok.. I'm losing my train of thought and running low on time. Need to get back to work. One question though:

    How many of you shudder at the idea of me posting here with an avatar reflecting my BRAND?!?!?!? Be honest.

    Thanks, Jason. This was fun. And.. I know you are “listening” because you actually reply to comments. Kudos.

    • Very useful response Jim. I love the Sales 101 lesson and know many of us on the marketing/PR/communications side that aren't focused directly on sales need to hear it more often as a reminder, if nothing else.

      I think the world we know has been led to believe sales is spammy, annoying and irrelevant because so many people have done it so poorly for so long. Car folks get the brunt end of that hate, but it's no different in many industries. Good salespeople never seem like they're selling. I would equate that quality to good social media marketers. You never realize they're connecting you to an idea, product or service. They're just someone you communicate with online who is helpful and provides value to the relationship.

      But you still have to measure their worth with what kind of business they bring you. And that's as parallel to sales as anything in the social realm.

      Thanks my friend. Good thoughts.

  • Great post Jason. Reality is sometimes painful.

    At the end of the day, it is about achieving objectives and getting business done, though we tend to lose sight of this. Nice conversation alone doesn't pay the bills. Good reminder to develop our social media strategies and tactics around what are ultimately “hard” goals (while still leveraging the power of these tools to build community, augment customer service, strengthen thought leadership, etc.)

    Eric Brody
    http://www.twitter.com/ericbrody

  • Great post Jason. Reality is sometimes painful.

    At the end of the day, it is about achieving objectives and getting business done, though we tend to lose sight of this. Nice conversation alone doesn't pay the bills. Good reminder to develop our social media strategies and tactics around what are ultimately “hard” goals (while still leveraging the power of these tools to build community, augment customer service, strengthen thought leadership, etc.)

    Eric Brody
    http://www.twitter.com/ericbrody

  • Great post Jason. Reality is sometimes painful.

    At the end of the day, it is about achieving objectives and getting business done, though we tend to lose sight of this. Nice conversation alone doesn't pay the bills. Good reminder to develop our social media strategies and tactics around what are ultimately “hard” goals (while still leveraging the power of these tools to build community, augment customer service, strengthen thought leadership, etc.)

    Eric Brody
    http://www.twitter.com/ericbrody

  • Great post Jason. Reality is sometimes painful.

    At the end of the day, it is about achieving objectives and getting business done, though we tend to lose sight of this. Nice conversation alone doesn't pay the bills. Good reminder to develop our social media strategies and tactics around what are ultimately “hard” goals (while still leveraging the power of these tools to build community, augment customer service, strengthen thought leadership, etc.)

    Eric Brody
    http://www.twitter.com/ericbrody

  • Great post Jason. Reality is sometimes painful.

    At the end of the day, it is about achieving objectives and getting business done, though we tend to lose sight of this. Nice conversation alone doesn't pay the bills. Good reminder to develop our social media strategies and tactics around what are ultimately “hard” goals (while still leveraging the power of these tools to build community, augment customer service, strengthen thought leadership, etc.)

    Eric Brody
    http://www.twitter.com/ericbrody

  • Great post Jason. Reality is sometimes painful.

    At the end of the day, it is about achieving objectives and getting business done, though we tend to lose sight of this. Nice conversation alone doesn't pay the bills. Good reminder to develop our social media strategies and tactics around what are ultimately “hard” goals (while still leveraging the power of these tools to build community, augment customer service, strengthen thought leadership, etc.)

    Eric Brody
    http://www.twitter.com/ericbrody

  • Phones ringing, tills bleeping, the tundle of footfall. I'm day 4 of a Social Media Marketing course; one of the delegates is from the public sector – nothing to sell, no hidden agenda, no sales mantra to be voiced.
    Or have they?
    Of course they have! Without disclosing exactly the 'what' is, they need an efficient, real-time, 'almost without a budget', form of marketing/spraeding the word/connecting with their 'customers'.
    Monetization is in some circles, one of the dirtiest words? Perhaps.
    Provided no-one sells out for 30 pieces of silver, then the world revolves on it, like it, lothe it, love it, whatever it.
    ~nuff said.

  • Phones ringing, tills bleeping, the tundle of footfall. I'm day 4 of a Social Media Marketing course; one of the delegates is from the public sector – nothing to sell, no hidden agenda, no sales mantra to be voiced.
    Or have they?
    Of course they have! Without disclosing exactly the 'what' is, they need an efficient, real-time, 'almost without a budget', form of marketing/spraeding the word/connecting with their 'customers'.
    Monetization is in some circles, one of the dirtiest words? Perhaps.
    Provided no-one sells out for 30 pieces of silver, then the world revolves on it, like it, lothe it, love it, whatever it.
    ~nuff said.

  • Phones ringing, tills bleeping, the tundle of footfall. I'm day 4 of a Social Media Marketing course; one of the delegates is from the public sector – nothing to sell, no hidden agenda, no sales mantra to be voiced.
    Or have they?
    Of course they have! Without disclosing exactly the 'what' is, they need an efficient, real-time, 'almost without a budget', form of marketing/spraeding the word/connecting with their 'customers'.
    Monetization is in some circles, one of the dirtiest words? Perhaps.
    Provided no-one sells out for 30 pieces of silver, then the world revolves on it, like it, lothe it, love it, whatever it.
    ~nuff said.

  • Phones ringing, tills bleeping, the tundle of footfall. I'm day 4 of a Social Media Marketing course; one of the delegates is from the public sector – nothing to sell, no hidden agenda, no sales mantra to be voiced.
    Or have they?
    Of course they have! Without disclosing exactly the 'what' is, they need an efficient, real-time, 'almost without a budget', form of marketing/spraeding the word/connecting with their 'customers'.
    Monetization is in some circles, one of the dirtiest words? Perhaps.
    Provided no-one sells out for 30 pieces of silver, then the world revolves on it, like it, lothe it, love it, whatever it.
    ~nuff said.

  • Phones ringing, tills bleeping, the tundle of footfall. I'm day 4 of a Social Media Marketing course; one of the delegates is from the public sector – nothing to sell, no hidden agenda, no sales mantra to be voiced.
    Or have they?
    Of course they have! Without disclosing exactly the 'what' is, they need an efficient, real-time, 'almost without a budget', form of marketing/spraeding the word/connecting with their 'customers'.
    Monetization is in some circles, one of the dirtiest words? Perhaps.
    Provided no-one sells out for 30 pieces of silver, then the world revolves on it, like it, lothe it, love it, whatever it.
    ~nuff said.

  • redcreative

    Phones ringing, tills bleeping, the tundle of footfall. I'm day 4 of a Social Media Marketing course; one of the delegates is from the public sector – nothing to sell, no hidden agenda, no sales mantra to be voiced.
    Or have they?
    Of course they have! Without disclosing exactly the 'what' is, they need an efficient, real-time, 'almost without a budget', form of marketing/spraeding the word/connecting with their 'customers'.
    Monetization is in some circles, one of the dirtiest words? Perhaps.
    Provided no-one sells out for 30 pieces of silver, then the world revolves on it, like it, lothe it, love it, whatever it.
    ~nuff said.

    • Nicely played. It is true that there are goals other than selling things, but driving business … whatever that business may be … is the bottom line for any client, profit-driven or otherwise. Thanks Red.

  • redcreative

    Phones ringing, tills bleeping, the tundle of footfall. I'm day 4 of a Social Media Marketing course; one of the delegates is from the public sector – nothing to sell, no hidden agenda, no sales mantra to be voiced.
    Or have they?
    Of course they have! Without disclosing exactly the 'what' is, they need an efficient, real-time, 'almost without a budget', form of marketing/spraeding the word/connecting with their 'customers'.
    Monetization is in some circles, one of the dirtiest words? Perhaps.
    Provided no-one sells out for 30 pieces of silver, then the world revolves on it, like it, loth it, love it, whatever it.
    ~nuff said.

  • Executives were willing to take social media on faith for only so long. At least in the B2B space, more and more companies realize that social media can be a useful marketing tool, but whatever the goal someone is going to come knocking for hard numbers. Of course to do social media marketing effectively you need to have already satisfied the engagement question, something more successful companies can do with or without social media. Those who continue to fly the social media for engagement's sake only miss the point and potential of a successful social media strategy. Businesses need to see tangible measurable returns sooner rather than later. Businesses don't need more social media “soft” rock stars; they need Pete Townshend not James Taylor.

  • Executives were willing to take social media on faith for only so long. At least in the B2B space, more and more companies realize that social media can be a useful marketing tool, but whatever the goal someone is going to come knocking for hard numbers. Of course to do social media marketing effectively you need to have already satisfied the engagement question, something more successful companies can do with or without social media. Those who continue to fly the social media for engagement's sake only miss the point and potential of a successful social media strategy. Businesses need to see tangible measurable returns sooner rather than later. Businesses don't need more social media “soft” rock stars; they need Pete Townshend not James Taylor.

  • Executives were willing to take social media on faith for only so long. At least in the B2B space, more and more companies realize that social media can be a useful marketing tool, but whatever the goal someone is going to come knocking for hard numbers. Of course to do social media marketing effectively you need to have already satisfied the engagement question, something more successful companies can do with or without social media. Those who continue to fly the social media for engagement's sake only miss the point and potential of a successful social media strategy. Businesses need to see tangible measurable returns sooner rather than later. Businesses don't need more social media “soft” rock stars; they need Pete Townshend not James Taylor.

  • Executives were willing to take social media on faith for only so long. At least in the B2B space, more and more companies realize that social media can be a useful marketing tool, but whatever the goal someone is going to come knocking for hard numbers. Of course to do social media marketing effectively you need to have already satisfied the engagement question, something more successful companies can do with or without social media. Those who continue to fly the social media for engagement's sake only miss the point and potential of a successful social media strategy. Businesses need to see tangible measurable returns sooner rather than later. Businesses don't need more social media “soft” rock stars; they need Pete Townshend not James Taylor.

  • Executives were willing to take social media on faith for only so long. At least in the B2B space, more and more companies realize that social media can be a useful marketing tool, but whatever the goal someone is going to come knocking for hard numbers. Of course to do social media marketing effectively you need to have already satisfied the engagement question, something more successful companies can do with or without social media. Those who continue to fly the social media for engagement's sake only miss the point and potential of a successful social media strategy. Businesses need to see tangible measurable returns sooner rather than later. Businesses don't need more social media “soft” rock stars; they need Pete Townshend not James Taylor.

  • Executives were willing to take social media on faith for only so long. At least in the B2B space, more and more companies realize that social media can be a useful marketing tool, but whatever the goal someone is going to come knocking for hard numbers. Of course to do social media marketing effectively you need to have already satisfied the engagement question, something more successful companies can do with or without social media. Those who continue to fly the social media for engagement's sake only miss the point and potential of a successful social media strategy. Businesses need to see tangible measurable returns sooner rather than later. Businesses don't need more social media “soft” rock stars; they need Pete Townshend not James Taylor.

    • I like it. Though I always kinda thought Townsend was a little on the soft side. Heh. Gimme an Ozzy or somethin' there. Heh. Thanks. Well said.

  • Faye Oney

    Great post! I also agree….social media is a tactic, not a strategy; and should be included as part of an overall marketing strategy.

  • Faye Oney

    Great post! I also agree….social media is a tactic, not a strategy; and should be included as part of an overall marketing strategy.

  • Faye Oney

    Great post! I also agree….social media is a tactic, not a strategy; and should be included as part of an overall marketing strategy.

  • Faye Oney

    Great post! I also agree….social media is a tactic, not a strategy; and should be included as part of an overall marketing strategy.

  • Faye Oney

    Great post! I also agree….social media is a tactic, not a strategy; and should be included as part of an overall marketing strategy.

  • Faye Oney

    Great post! I also agree….social media is a tactic, not a strategy; and should be included as part of an overall marketing strategy.

    • Not sure I would say social media is a tactic and that's all. But I see what you're saying. Social media strategies can help execute an overall marketing plan and they are one set of strategies/social media is one channel a company can use to accomplish its marketing goals. But social media can certainly be a strategy as well. Thanks, Faye.

  • Good thoughts, Andre. And I don't think every communications platform needs to be exploited for commercial/corporate benefit, but understand that even collaborative platforms that have proven useful like MyStarbucks.com and Dell's Idea Storm have business metrics tied to their success. It's not all gather-in-a-circle-and-sing-Kumbaya. It's how does this effort, though social and championed by the purists in the crowd, move the needle and drive business? If Idea Storm wasn't doing that in some way, Dell wouldn't invest in it. That's just how business works.

    If I own a company and the livelihood and well being of my employees and family is on the line, I'm not paying to support a social media effort that isn't driving consumer transaction, not just engagement, in my company or its products. Yes, there are ancillary and harder to measure benefits like exploration, etc., but if that exploration doesn't lead to profitability or business goal accomplishment, in most companies it won't last.

    Thanks for the well said feedback!

  • Good thoughts, Andre. And I don't think every communications platform needs to be exploited for commercial/corporate benefit, but understand that even collaborative platforms that have proven useful like MyStarbucks.com and Dell's Idea Storm have business metrics tied to their success. It's not all gather-in-a-circle-and-sing-Kumbaya. It's how does this effort, though social and championed by the purists in the crowd, move the needle and drive business? If Idea Storm wasn't doing that in some way, Dell wouldn't invest in it. That's just how business works.

    If I own a company and the livelihood and well being of my employees and family is on the line, I'm not paying to support a social media effort that isn't driving consumer transaction, not just engagement, in my company or its products. Yes, there are ancillary and harder to measure benefits like exploration, etc., but if that exploration doesn't lead to profitability or business goal accomplishment, in most companies it won't last.

    Thanks for the well said feedback!

  • Good thoughts, Andre. And I don't think every communications platform needs to be exploited for commercial/corporate benefit, but understand that even collaborative platforms that have proven useful like MyStarbucks.com and Dell's Idea Storm have business metrics tied to their success. It's not all gather-in-a-circle-and-sing-Kumbaya. It's how does this effort, though social and championed by the purists in the crowd, move the needle and drive business? If Idea Storm wasn't doing that in some way, Dell wouldn't invest in it. That's just how business works.

    If I own a company and the livelihood and well being of my employees and family is on the line, I'm not paying to support a social media effort that isn't driving consumer transaction, not just engagement, in my company or its products. Yes, there are ancillary and harder to measure benefits like exploration, etc., but if that exploration doesn't lead to profitability or business goal accomplishment, in most companies it won't last.

    Thanks for the well said feedback!

  • Good thoughts, Andre. And I don't think every communications platform needs to be exploited for commercial/corporate benefit, but understand that even collaborative platforms that have proven useful like MyStarbucks.com and Dell's Idea Storm have business metrics tied to their success. It's not all gather-in-a-circle-and-sing-Kumbaya. It's how does this effort, though social and championed by the purists in the crowd, move the needle and drive business? If Idea Storm wasn't doing that in some way, Dell wouldn't invest in it. That's just how business works.

    If I own a company and the livelihood and well being of my employees and family is on the line, I'm not paying to support a social media effort that isn't driving consumer transaction, not just engagement, in my company or its products. Yes, there are ancillary and harder to measure benefits like exploration, etc., but if that exploration doesn't lead to profitability or business goal accomplishment, in most companies it won't last.

    Thanks for the well said feedback!

  • Good thoughts, Andre. And I don't think every communications platform needs to be exploited for commercial/corporate benefit, but understand that even collaborative platforms that have proven useful like MyStarbucks.com and Dell's Idea Storm have business metrics tied to their success. It's not all gather-in-a-circle-and-sing-Kumbaya. It's how does this effort, though social and championed by the purists in the crowd, move the needle and drive business? If Idea Storm wasn't doing that in some way, Dell wouldn't invest in it. That's just how business works.

    If I own a company and the livelihood and well being of my employees and family is on the line, I'm not paying to support a social media effort that isn't driving consumer transaction, not just engagement, in my company or its products. Yes, there are ancillary and harder to measure benefits like exploration, etc., but if that exploration doesn't lead to profitability or business goal accomplishment, in most companies it won't last.

    Thanks for the well said feedback!

  • What I feel good about is that you are making a conversation over here. You may not reply to this.

    Great post, and I am a big fan. Cheers.

    I made my point, and you made yours.

  • What I feel good about is that you are making a conversation over here. You may not reply to this.

    Great post, and I am a big fan. Cheers.

    I made my point, and you made yours.

  • What I feel good about is that you are making a conversation over here. You may not reply to this.

    Great post, and I am a big fan. Cheers.

    I made my point, and you made yours.

  • What I feel good about is that you are making a conversation over here. You may not reply to this.

    Great post, and I am a big fan. Cheers.

    I made my point, and you made yours.

  • What I feel good about is that you are making a conversation over here. You may not reply to this.

    Great post, and I am a big fan. Cheers.

    I made my point, and you made yours.

  • Well said, Jeremy. Thanks for this. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Social media can drive business. My hope was that this post will force us all to remember the realities of that statement. Driving business is the goal. Doesn't mean we have to violate the purities of social media, just that we have to use them smartly. Thanks!

  • Well said, Jeremy. Thanks for this. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Social media can drive business. My hope was that this post will force us all to remember the realities of that statement. Driving business is the goal. Doesn't mean we have to violate the purities of social media, just that we have to use them smartly. Thanks!

  • Well said, Jeremy. Thanks for this. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Social media can drive business. My hope was that this post will force us all to remember the realities of that statement. Driving business is the goal. Doesn't mean we have to violate the purities of social media, just that we have to use them smartly. Thanks!

  • Well said, Jeremy. Thanks for this. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Social media can drive business. My hope was that this post will force us all to remember the realities of that statement. Driving business is the goal. Doesn't mean we have to violate the purities of social media, just that we have to use them smartly. Thanks!

  • Well said, Jeremy. Thanks for this. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Social media can drive business. My hope was that this post will force us all to remember the realities of that statement. Driving business is the goal. Doesn't mean we have to violate the purities of social media, just that we have to use them smartly. Thanks!

  • Phew..was just worried that my tone may have been a bit abrasive – thanks for understanding. Even though I cringe on the use of the cliche 'moving the needle', that precisely should be the yardstick for those conversation-based campaigns. Thanks for this post…made me think; very few blogs do that in these days of social media noise.

  • Phew..was just worried that my tone may have been a bit abrasive – thanks for understanding. Even though I cringe on the use of the cliche 'moving the needle', that precisely should be the yardstick for those conversation-based campaigns. Thanks for this post…made me think; very few blogs do that in these days of social media noise.

  • Phew..was just worried that my tone may have been a bit abrasive – thanks for understanding. Even though I cringe on the use of the cliche 'moving the needle', that precisely should be the yardstick for those conversation-based campaigns. Thanks for this post…made me think; very few blogs do that in these days of social media noise.

  • Phew..was just worried that my tone may have been a bit abrasive – thanks for understanding. Even though I cringe on the use of the cliche 'moving the needle', that precisely should be the yardstick for those conversation-based campaigns. Thanks for this post…made me think; very few blogs do that in these days of social media noise.

  • Phew..was just worried that my tone may have been a bit abrasive – thanks for understanding. Even though I cringe on the use of the cliche 'moving the needle', that precisely should be the yardstick for those conversation-based campaigns. Thanks for this post…made me think; very few blogs do that in these days of social media noise.

  • Yes Yes Yes.

    I have often called myself a Social Media Pragmatist. I agree the days of Social Media Purists are numbered. Here is a fuller response:

    Social Media Pragmatists beat Purists

    Good work
    Charlie
    FreshNetworks

  • Yes Yes Yes.

    I have often called myself a Social Media Pragmatist. I agree the days of Social Media Purists are numbered. Here is a fuller response:

    Social Media Pragmatists beat Purists

    Good work
    Charlie
    FreshNetworks

  • Yes Yes Yes.

    I have often called myself a Social Media Pragmatist. I agree the days of Social Media Purists are numbered. Here is a fuller response:

    Social Media Pragmatists beat Purists

    Good work
    Charlie
    FreshNetworks

  • Yes Yes Yes.

    I have often called myself a Social Media Pragmatist. I agree the days of Social Media Purists are numbered. Here is a fuller response:

    Social Media Pragmatists beat Purists

    Good work
    Charlie
    FreshNetworks

  • Yes Yes Yes.

    I have often called myself a Social Media Pragmatist. I agree the days of Social Media Purists are numbered. Here is a fuller response:

    Social Media Pragmatists beat Purists

    Good work
    Charlie
    FreshNetworks

  • Yes Yes Yes.

    I have often called myself a Social Media Pragmatist. I agree the days of Social Media Purists are numbered. Here is a fuller response:

    Social Media Pragmatists beat Purists

    Good work
    Charlie
    FreshNetworks

    • Thanks, Charlie. Will check it out ASAP.

  • Excellent Mike. Thanks for the how-to reminder for folks there. Much appreciated.

  • Excellent Mike. Thanks for the how-to reminder for folks there. Much appreciated.

  • Excellent Mike. Thanks for the how-to reminder for folks there. Much appreciated.

  • Excellent Mike. Thanks for the how-to reminder for folks there. Much appreciated.

  • Excellent Mike. Thanks for the how-to reminder for folks there. Much appreciated.

  • Agree, agree, Mr. Steve. Thanks for the input.

  • Agree, agree, Mr. Steve. Thanks for the input.

  • Agree, agree, Mr. Steve. Thanks for the input.

  • Agree, agree, Mr. Steve. Thanks for the input.

  • Agree, agree, Mr. Steve. Thanks for the input.

  • Thanks, Cheryl. And I would argue that anyone on the social side of the aisle is probably a hippie in businessperson's clothing. Nice one.

  • Thanks, Cheryl. And I would argue that anyone on the social side of the aisle is probably a hippie in businessperson's clothing. Nice one.

  • Thanks, Cheryl. And I would argue that anyone on the social side of the aisle is probably a hippie in businessperson's clothing. Nice one.

  • Thanks, Cheryl. And I would argue that anyone on the social side of the aisle is probably a hippie in businessperson's clothing. Nice one.

  • Thanks, Cheryl. And I would argue that anyone on the social side of the aisle is probably a hippie in businessperson's clothing. Nice one.

  • Thank you, so much, Shannon for sharing that. It's not easy to look back and recognize mistakes or missed opportunities. I've done that quite a bit in my professional life. And thanks for showing a real world example of what I'm talking about. I'm not for getting rid of purists. I'm a purist. But I'm one that has learned that with the conversation must come conversion. Or we're just selling fluff. Thanks again. Glad you've made the migration to the practical puritanism of social media. Heh.

  • Thank you, so much, Shannon for sharing that. It's not easy to look back and recognize mistakes or missed opportunities. I've done that quite a bit in my professional life. And thanks for showing a real world example of what I'm talking about. I'm not for getting rid of purists. I'm a purist. But I'm one that has learned that with the conversation must come conversion. Or we're just selling fluff. Thanks again. Glad you've made the migration to the practical puritanism of social media. Heh.

  • Thank you, so much, Shannon for sharing that. It's not easy to look back and recognize mistakes or missed opportunities. I've done that quite a bit in my professional life. And thanks for showing a real world example of what I'm talking about. I'm not for getting rid of purists. I'm a purist. But I'm one that has learned that with the conversation must come conversion. Or we're just selling fluff. Thanks again. Glad you've made the migration to the practical puritanism of social media. Heh.

  • Thank you, so much, Shannon for sharing that. It's not easy to look back and recognize mistakes or missed opportunities. I've done that quite a bit in my professional life. And thanks for showing a real world example of what I'm talking about. I'm not for getting rid of purists. I'm a purist. But I'm one that has learned that with the conversation must come conversion. Or we're just selling fluff. Thanks again. Glad you've made the migration to the practical puritanism of social media. Heh.

  • Thank you, so much, Shannon for sharing that. It's not easy to look back and recognize mistakes or missed opportunities. I've done that quite a bit in my professional life. And thanks for showing a real world example of what I'm talking about. I'm not for getting rid of purists. I'm a purist. But I'm one that has learned that with the conversation must come conversion. Or we're just selling fluff. Thanks again. Glad you've made the migration to the practical puritanism of social media. Heh.

  • Slick post Jason

    If your intent was to get “attention” then the title and position you took definitely got my attention. Enough to warrant the time for a response.

    You nicely threaded the issue but failed to address “methods” for producing results. If your product or service is a commodity well then conversations and relationships don't matter rather price is the attention and attraction point of sale for the markets. Pushing out price on commodity products and services is largely a leverage of attention which social media can facilitate.

    On the other hand “markets” represent consumption and the behavior of markets is changing. Results are no longer purely driven by slick marketing and selling methods (social media) rather consumption is now influenced by references, relationships, value and intention. I can buy something at the lowest price point but be disappointed by the experience of the product and the service. The examples you point to are firms whose organizations stand behind their product, their service and whose market reputation reflects those values. The “intent” of these organizations is to increase brand equity through the experience, the price and the relationship with the markets. They take a systemic approach to market relations.

    Cluetrain is more than a concept the basic premise of Cluetrain represents the dynamic of markets and how technology is changing those dynamics. Selling and marketing are not the total function of an organization or a market. Markets are indeed shifting to relational dynamics, trust, integrity and subsequently intention is becoming transparent. By the way Doc is releasing another books titled “The Intention Economy” which will further the knowledge of these changing dynamics.

    Who can argue your point about driving results? Your message will likely pull more business to you because 99% of the market wants results. However, results don't happen unless you have a well defined and “connected” system of delivering value to a market ready for consumption. But most of the market is still stuck in “legacy thinking” which emphasizes selling and marketing as a media reliant only on messages, reach, price and push.

    Market behavior is relevant to the methods used to produce results. Selling is and always will be relational. marketing and advertising are not. With the introduction of social technology market dynamics are changing. Numerous universities supported by the Fortune 500 have initiated studies to better understand these moving dynamics. The economy is demanding more for less and capital is shifting from the currency of the dollar to the currency of market relations and yes conversations.

    Your post stirred a conversation. It got my attention and others. Now we'll see the “results” of your post and what it produces. The outcomes will reflect a view of issues and market behavior from those who find your perspectives valuable, entertaining and provocative. However the perspectives from a few doe not reflect the larger market of dynamic changes. The market is much larger and the dynamics more profound then a couple of hundred responses to one post. Just maybe we all need to learn to “listen and learn” from the shifts of a larger market of change.

    Now lets see if my response got any other attention like your original position did.

  • Slick post Jason

    If your intent was to get “attention” then the title and position you took definitely got my attention. Enough to warrant the time for a response.

    You nicely threaded the issue but failed to address “methods” for producing results. If your product or service is a commodity well then conversations and relationships don't matter rather price is the attention and attraction point of sale for the markets. Pushing out price on commodity products and services is largely a leverage of attention which social media can facilitate.

    On the other hand “markets” represent consumption and the behavior of markets is changing. Results are no longer purely driven by slick marketing and selling methods (social media) rather consumption is now influenced by references, relationships, value and intention. I can buy something at the lowest price point but be disappointed by the experience of the product and the service. The examples you point to are firms whose organizations stand behind their product, their service and whose market reputation reflects those values. The “intent” of these organizations is to increase brand equity through the experience, the price and the relationship with the markets. They take a systemic approach to market relations.

    Cluetrain is more than a concept the basic premise of Cluetrain represents the dynamic of markets and how technology is changing those dynamics. Selling and marketing are not the total function of an organization or a market. Markets are indeed shifting to relational dynamics, trust, integrity and subsequently intention is becoming transparent. By the way Doc is releasing another books titled “The Intention Economy” which will further the knowledge of these changing dynamics.

    Who can argue your point about driving results? Your message will likely pull more business to you because 99% of the market wants results. However, results don't happen unless you have a well defined and “connected” system of delivering value to a market ready for consumption. But most of the market is still stuck in “legacy thinking” which emphasizes selling and marketing as a media reliant only on messages, reach, price and push.

    Market behavior is relevant to the methods used to produce results. Selling is and always will be relational. marketing and advertising are not. With the introduction of social technology market dynamics are changing. Numerous universities supported by the Fortune 500 have initiated studies to better understand these moving dynamics. The economy is demanding more for less and capital is shifting from the currency of the dollar to the currency of market relations and yes conversations.

    Your post stirred a conversation. It got my attention and others. Now we'll see the “results” of your post and what it produces. The outcomes will reflect a view of issues and market behavior from those who find your perspectives valuable, entertaining and provocative. However the perspectives from a few doe not reflect the larger market of dynamic changes. The market is much larger and the dynamics more profound then a couple of hundred responses to one post. Just maybe we all need to learn to “listen and learn” from the shifts of a larger market of change.

    Now lets see if my response got any other attention like your original position did.

  • Slick post Jason

    If your intent was to get “attention” then the title and position you took definitely got my attention. Enough to warrant the time for a response.

    You nicely threaded the issue but failed to address “methods” for producing results. If your product or service is a commodity well then conversations and relationships don't matter rather price is the attention and attraction point of sale for the markets. Pushing out price on commodity products and services is largely a leverage of attention which social media can facilitate.

    On the other hand “markets” represent consumption and the behavior of markets is changing. Results are no longer purely driven by slick marketing and selling methods (social media) rather consumption is now influenced by references, relationships, value and intention. I can buy something at the lowest price point but be disappointed by the experience of the product and the service. The examples you point to are firms whose organizations stand behind their product, their service and whose market reputation reflects those values. The “intent” of these organizations is to increase brand equity through the experience, the price and the relationship with the markets. They take a systemic approach to market relations.

    Cluetrain is more than a concept the basic premise of Cluetrain represents the dynamic of markets and how technology is changing those dynamics. Selling and marketing are not the total function of an organization or a market. Markets are indeed shifting to relational dynamics, trust, integrity and subsequently intention is becoming transparent. By the way Doc is releasing another books titled “The Intention Economy” which will further the knowledge of these changing dynamics.

    Who can argue your point about driving results? Your message will likely pull more business to you because 99% of the market wants results. However, results don't happen unless you have a well defined and “connected” system of delivering value to a market ready for consumption. But most of the market is still stuck in “legacy thinking” which emphasizes selling and marketing as a media reliant only on messages, reach, price and push.

    Market behavior is relevant to the methods used to produce results. Selling is and always will be relational. marketing and advertising are not. With the introduction of social technology market dynamics are changing. Numerous universities supported by the Fortune 500 have initiated studies to better understand these moving dynamics. The economy is demanding more for less and capital is shifting from the currency of the dollar to the currency of market relations and yes conversations.

    Your post stirred a conversation. It got my attention and others. Now we'll see the “results” of your post and what it produces. The outcomes will reflect a view of issues and market behavior from those who find your perspectives valuable, entertaining and provocative. However the perspectives from a few doe not reflect the larger market of dynamic changes. The market is much larger and the dynamics more profound then a couple of hundred responses to one post. Just maybe we all need to learn to “listen and learn” from the shifts of a larger market of change.

    Now lets see if my response got any other attention like your original position did.

  • Slick post Jason

    If your intent was to get “attention” then the title and position you took definitely got my attention. Enough to warrant the time for a response.

    You nicely threaded the issue but failed to address “methods” for producing results. If your product or service is a commodity well then conversations and relationships don't matter rather price is the attention and attraction point of sale for the markets. Pushing out price on commodity products and services is largely a leverage of attention which social media can facilitate.

    On the other hand “markets” represent consumption and the behavior of markets is changing. Results are no longer purely driven by slick marketing and selling methods (social media) rather consumption is now influenced by references, relationships, value and intention. I can buy something at the lowest price point but be disappointed by the experience of the product and the service. The examples you point to are firms whose organizations stand behind their product, their service and whose market reputation reflects those values. The “intent” of these organizations is to increase brand equity through the experience, the price and the relationship with the markets. They take a systemic approach to market relations.

    Cluetrain is more than a concept the basic premise of Cluetrain represents the dynamic of markets and how technology is changing those dynamics. Selling and marketing are not the total function of an organization or a market. Markets are indeed shifting to relational dynamics, trust, integrity and subsequently intention is becoming transparent. By the way Doc is releasing another books titled “The Intention Economy” which will further the knowledge of these changing dynamics.

    Who can argue your point about driving results? Your message will likely pull more business to you because 99% of the market wants results. However, results don't happen unless you have a well defined and “connected” system of delivering value to a market ready for consumption. But most of the market is still stuck in “legacy thinking” which emphasizes selling and marketing as a media reliant only on messages, reach, price and push.

    Market behavior is relevant to the methods used to produce results. Selling is and always will be relational. marketing and advertising are not. With the introduction of social technology market dynamics are changing. Numerous universities supported by the Fortune 500 have initiated studies to better understand these moving dynamics. The economy is demanding more for less and capital is shifting from the currency of the dollar to the currency of market relations and yes conversations.

    Your post stirred a conversation. It got my attention and others. Now we'll see the “results” of your post and what it produces. The outcomes will reflect a view of issues and market behavior from those who find your perspectives valuable, entertaining and provocative. However the perspectives from a few doe not reflect the larger market of dynamic changes. The market is much larger and the dynamics more profound then a couple of hundred responses to one post. Just maybe we all need to learn to “listen and learn” from the shifts of a larger market of change.

    Now lets see if my response got any other attention like your original position did.

  • Slick post Jason

    If your intent was to get “attention” then the title and position you took definitely got my attention. Enough to warrant the time for a response.

    You nicely threaded the issue but failed to address “methods” for producing results. If your product or service is a commodity well then conversations and relationships don't matter rather price is the attention and attraction point of sale for the markets. Pushing out price on commodity products and services is largely a leverage of attention which social media can facilitate.

    On the other hand “markets” represent consumption and the behavior of markets is changing. Results are no longer purely driven by slick marketing and selling methods (social media) rather consumption is now influenced by references, relationships, value and intention. I can buy something at the lowest price point but be disappointed by the experience of the product and the service. The examples you point to are firms whose organizations stand behind their product, their service and whose market reputation reflects those values. The “intent” of these organizations is to increase brand equity through the experience, the price and the relationship with the markets. They take a systemic approach to market relations.

    Cluetrain is more than a concept the basic premise of Cluetrain represents the dynamic of markets and how technology is changing those dynamics. Selling and marketing are not the total function of an organization or a market. Markets are indeed shifting to relational dynamics, trust, integrity and subsequently intention is becoming transparent. By the way Doc is releasing another books titled “The Intention Economy” which will further the knowledge of these changing dynamics.

    Who can argue your point about driving results? Your message will likely pull more business to you because 99% of the market wants results. However, results don't happen unless you have a well defined and “connected” system of delivering value to a market ready for consumption. But most of the market is still stuck in “legacy thinking” which emphasizes selling and marketing as a media reliant only on messages, reach, price and push.

    Market behavior is relevant to the methods used to produce results. Selling is and always will be relational. marketing and advertising are not. With the introduction of social technology market dynamics are changing. Numerous universities supported by the Fortune 500 have initiated studies to better understand these moving dynamics. The economy is demanding more for less and capital is shifting from the currency of the dollar to the currency of market relations and yes conversations.

    Your post stirred a conversation. It got my attention and others. Now we'll see the “results” of your post and what it produces. The outcomes will reflect a view of issues and market behavior from those who find your perspectives valuable, entertaining and provocative. However the perspectives from a few doe not reflect the larger market of dynamic changes. The market is much larger and the dynamics more profound then a couple of hundred responses to one post. Just maybe we all need to learn to “listen and learn” from the shifts of a larger market of change.

    Now lets see if my response got any other attention like your original position did.

  • Slick post Jason

    If your intent was to get “attention” then the title and position you took definitely got my attention. Enough to warrant the time for a response.

    You nicely threaded the issue but failed to address “methods” for producing results. If your product or service is a commodity well then conversations and relationships don't matter rather price is the attention and attraction point of sale for the markets. Pushing out price on commodity products and services is largely a leverage of attention which social media can facilitate.

    On the other hand “markets” represent consumption and the behavior of markets is changing. Results are no longer purely driven by slick marketing and selling methods (social media) rather consumption is now influenced by references, relationships, value and intention. I can buy something at the lowest price point but be disappointed by the experience of the product and the service. The examples you point to are firms whose organizations stand behind their product, their service and whose market reputation reflects those values. The “intent” of these organizations is to increase brand equity through the experience, the price and the relationship with the markets. They take a systemic approach to market relations.

    Cluetrain is more than a concept the basic premise of Cluetrain represents the dynamic of markets and how technology is changing those dynamics. Selling and marketing are not the total function of an organization or a market. Markets are indeed shifting to relational dynamics, trust, integrity and subsequently intention is becoming transparent. By the way Doc is releasing another books titled “The Intention Economy” which will further the knowledge of these changing dynamics.

    Who can argue your point about driving results? Your message will likely pull more business to you because 99% of the market wants results. However, results don't happen unless you have a well defined and “connected” system of delivering value to a market ready for consumption. But most of the market is still stuck in “legacy thinking” which emphasizes selling and marketing as a media reliant only on messages, reach, price and push.

    Market behavior is relevant to the methods used to produce results. Selling is and always will be relational. marketing and advertising are not. With the introduction of social technology market dynamics are changing. Numerous universities supported by the Fortune 500 have initiated studies to better understand these moving dynamics. The economy is demanding more for less and capital is shifting from the currency of the dollar to the currency of market relations and yes conversations.

    Your post stirred a conversation. It got my attention and others. Now we'll see the “results” of your post and what it produces. The outcomes will reflect a view of issues and market behavior from those who find your perspectives valuable, entertaining and provocative. However the perspectives from a few doe not reflect the larger market of dynamic changes. The market is much larger and the dynamics more profound then a couple of hundred responses to one post. Just maybe we all need to learn to “listen and learn” from the shifts of a larger market of change.

    Now lets see if my response got any other attention like your original position did.

    • Thanks for the well thought response, Jay. Nice to see a reaction so well defined and argued.

      Honestly, I don't disagree with you. The issue at hand is far more complex than stop selling fluff and start selling product/service. Yes, investing in a social ecosystem around your brand is smart marketing for the reasons you mention. Building conversation points and engagement opportunities for your product or service facilitates the consumer need in this ever-changing marketplace.

      My intention with the post (beyond grabbing attention and driving conversation, which is always somewhere on the pecking order for me) was to point to the social media puritanical thinking that serves many as the reason they're listened to by the crowd. Not that the thinking is incorrect, but that there must be some underlying business value you provide beyond the conversation. Yes, the conversation is critical, but so is the transactional.

      The idea for this was wrought more out of the needs my clients express rather than what the social media blogosphere wants to hear. Those needs may change over time as the market proves both different and proves profitable for those engaging in it the way you suggest is necessary. But today, here and now, for businesses in need of social media strategy and guidance, there is a need for measures, impacts and results. And if we're not also taking that to bat with us, we're swinging with our hands.

      Thanks for the push back.

      • Thanks for taking the time and thought to respond. Excellent dialog going on here and I enjoy and respect your thinking reflected in many of your post. This post sparked me to draft a post titled “Drinking The Social Media Kool-Aid” which will be out maybe next week.

        The post isn't going to be what many may think rather my objective is to encouraging thinking. While all businesses want results and my career has been on teaching, guiding and facilitating organization to think “what and how do results get created”.

        In my humble option, and experience of 25 years dealing with corporate mindsets, most of the market wants results without understand, learning or thinking about “how” to create results consistently, effectively and aimed at what the buyer really wants. Social media is getting a bad name because most organizations thin of it as “just another marketing channel” rather than taking the time to understand that communications and relationships drive, influence and produce everything: the good, the bad and the ugly.

        Drinking social media Kool-Aid is largely an influence of what knowledge we “publish” to the marketplace. If all we publish focuses on “results” then the marketplace will just copy what others do to produce results. Copying isn't learning or creating new knowledge that can be applied systemically.

        Make sense? Your comments and insights are always appreciated….keep stirring up the thinking :)

  • If I were drinking coffee, it would have come out my nose. Thanks Stu.

  • If I were drinking coffee, it would have come out my nose. Thanks Stu.

  • If I were drinking coffee, it would have come out my nose. Thanks Stu.

  • If I were drinking coffee, it would have come out my nose. Thanks Stu.

  • If I were drinking coffee, it would have come out my nose. Thanks Stu.

  • As some other commenters seem to be saying this is a timely post. There certainly needs to be a periodic assessment of any medium and when it's all boiled down that's what social media is.

    It's quite new so it seems important but as with all tools it's what you do with it that counts. Owning a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter.

  • As some other commenters seem to be saying this is a timely post. There certainly needs to be a periodic assessment of any medium and when it's all boiled down that's what social media is.

    It's quite new so it seems important but as with all tools it's what you do with it that counts. Owning a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter.

  • As some other commenters seem to be saying this is a timely post. There certainly needs to be a periodic assessment of any medium and when it's all boiled down that's what social media is.

    It's quite new so it seems important but as with all tools it's what you do with it that counts. Owning a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter.

  • As some other commenters seem to be saying this is a timely post. There certainly needs to be a periodic assessment of any medium and when it's all boiled down that's what social media is.

    It's quite new so it seems important but as with all tools it's what you do with it that counts. Owning a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter.

  • As some other commenters seem to be saying this is a timely post. There certainly needs to be a periodic assessment of any medium and when it's all boiled down that's what social media is.

    It's quite new so it seems important but as with all tools it's what you do with it that counts. Owning a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter.

  • Great points, Karthik. Thanks for this. It's not that I mean conversations or engagement aren't important or don't count. The point is to say that if you sell that and only that. If that's all you're doing for your clients or companies, you lose. There must be the call to action, the needle movement, the measures of success on the back end of a social media effort or the person selling it is not doing you or your company justice. I like your analogies and we're in agreement. I guess my line in the sand (effect to drive conversation) made my ultimate point a little unclear. But then again, it's driving a nice discussion. I'll take it.

    Thanks for joining in!

  • Great points, Karthik. Thanks for this. It's not that I mean conversations or engagement aren't important or don't count. The point is to say that if you sell that and only that. If that's all you're doing for your clients or companies, you lose. There must be the call to action, the needle movement, the measures of success on the back end of a social media effort or the person selling it is not doing you or your company justice. I like your analogies and we're in agreement. I guess my line in the sand (effect to drive conversation) made my ultimate point a little unclear. But then again, it's driving a nice discussion. I'll take it.

    Thanks for joining in!

  • Great points, Karthik. Thanks for this. It's not that I mean conversations or engagement aren't important or don't count. The point is to say that if you sell that and only that. If that's all you're doing for your clients or companies, you lose. There must be the call to action, the needle movement, the measures of success on the back end of a social media effort or the person selling it is not doing you or your company justice. I like your analogies and we're in agreement. I guess my line in the sand (effect to drive conversation) made my ultimate point a little unclear. But then again, it's driving a nice discussion. I'll take it.

    Thanks for joining in!

  • Great points, Karthik. Thanks for this. It's not that I mean conversations or engagement aren't important or don't count. The point is to say that if you sell that and only that. If that's all you're doing for your clients or companies, you lose. There must be the call to action, the needle movement, the measures of success on the back end of a social media effort or the person selling it is not doing you or your company justice. I like your analogies and we're in agreement. I guess my line in the sand (effect to drive conversation) made my ultimate point a little unclear. But then again, it's driving a nice discussion. I'll take it.

    Thanks for joining in!

  • Great points, Karthik. Thanks for this. It's not that I mean conversations or engagement aren't important or don't count. The point is to say that if you sell that and only that. If that's all you're doing for your clients or companies, you lose. There must be the call to action, the needle movement, the measures of success on the back end of a social media effort or the person selling it is not doing you or your company justice. I like your analogies and we're in agreement. I guess my line in the sand (effect to drive conversation) made my ultimate point a little unclear. But then again, it's driving a nice discussion. I'll take it.

    Thanks for joining in!

  • Thanks, Patrick.

  • Thanks, Patrick.

  • Thanks, Patrick.

  • Thanks, Patrick.

  • Thanks, Patrick.

  • Errr…isn't all this focus on conversation just the prelude to creating points for call-to-action? I mean, for instance, with a billboard, people do not have a choice but to see/ notice the message since they pass by that road everyday. Conversations (creating them/ creating a community for them) is akin to laying the road, so that one day, when the time is right, brands can put up the billboard.

    Of course, like Dell, they could start with a compelling communication of an offer, so that, that itself serves as the road laying part. But, for those brands that do not have 'offers' that can evolve into call-for-action, they need to prove first that they care for their customers in whichever online vehicle they choose and then start selling in an appropriate manner. Direct selling would be akin to shouting about your wares in a party you were never invited in the first place.

  • Errr…isn't all this focus on conversation just the prelude to creating points for call-to-action? I mean, for instance, with a billboard, people do not have a choice but to see/ notice the message since they pass by that road everyday. Conversations (creating them/ creating a community for them) is akin to laying the road, so that one day, when the time is right, brands can put up the billboard.

    Of course, like Dell, they could start with a compelling communication of an offer, so that, that itself serves as the road laying part. But, for those brands that do not have 'offers' that can evolve into call-for-action, they need to prove first that they care for their customers in whichever online vehicle they choose and then start selling in an appropriate manner. Direct selling would be akin to shouting about your wares in a party you were never invited in the first place.

  • Errr…isn't all this focus on conversation just the prelude to creating points for call-to-action? I mean, for instance, with a billboard, people do not have a choice but to see/ notice the message since they pass by that road everyday. Conversations (creating them/ creating a community for them) is akin to laying the road, so that one day, when the time is right, brands can put up the billboard.

    Of course, like Dell, they could start with a compelling communication of an offer, so that, that itself serves as the road laying part. But, for those brands that do not have 'offers' that can evolve into call-for-action, they need to prove first that they care for their customers in whichever online vehicle they choose and then start selling in an appropriate manner. Direct selling would be akin to shouting about your wares in a party you were never invited in the first place.

  • Errr…isn't all this focus on conversation just the prelude to creating points for call-to-action? I mean, for instance, with a billboard, people do not have a choice but to see/ notice the message since they pass by that road everyday. Conversations (creating them/ creating a community for them) is akin to laying the road, so that one day, when the time is right, brands can put up the billboard.

    Of course, like Dell, they could start with a compelling communication of an offer, so that, that itself serves as the road laying part. But, for those brands that do not have 'offers' that can evolve into call-for-action, they need to prove first that they care for their customers in whichever online vehicle they choose and then start selling in an appropriate manner. Direct selling would be akin to shouting about your wares in a party you were never invited in the first place.

  • Errr…isn't all this focus on conversation just the prelude to creating points for call-to-action? I mean, for instance, with a billboard, people do not have a choice but to see/ notice the message since they pass by that road everyday. Conversations (creating them/ creating a community for them) is akin to laying the road, so that one day, when the time is right, brands can put up the billboard.

    Of course, like Dell, they could start with a compelling communication of an offer, so that, that itself serves as the road laying part. But, for those brands that do not have 'offers' that can evolve into call-for-action, they need to prove first that they care for their customers in whichever online vehicle they choose and then start selling in an appropriate manner. Direct selling would be akin to shouting about your wares in a party you were never invited in the first place.

  • Errr…isn't all this focus on conversation just the prelude to creating points for call-to-action? I mean, for instance, with a billboard, people do not have a choice but to see/ notice the message since they pass by that road everyday. Conversations (creating them/ creating a community for them) is akin to laying the road, so that one day, when the time is right, brands can put up the billboard.

    Of course, like Dell, they could start with a compelling communication of an offer, so that, that itself serves as the road laying part. But, for those brands that do not have 'offers' that can evolve into call-for-action, they need to prove first that they care for their customers in whichever online vehicle they choose and then start selling in an appropriate manner. Direct selling would be akin to shouting about your wares in a party you were never invited in the first place.

    • Great points, Karthik. Thanks for this. It's not that I mean conversations or engagement aren't important or don't count. The point is to say that if you sell that and only that. If that's all you're doing for your clients or companies, you lose. There must be the call to action, the needle movement, the measures of success on the back end of a social media effort or the person selling it is not doing you or your company justice. I like your analogies and we're in agreement. I guess my line in the sand (effect to drive conversation) made my ultimate point a little unclear. But then again, it's driving a nice discussion. I'll take it.

      Thanks for joining in!

      • Phew..was just worried that my tone may have been a bit abrasive – thanks for understanding. Even though I cringe on the use of the cliche 'moving the needle', that precisely should be the yardstick for those conversation-based campaigns. Thanks for this post…made me think; very few blogs do that in these days of social media noise.

  • Win.

    This post is full of it.

    Having come up through the ranks (at least in my mind anyway) during the last couple of years it's been interesting to watch the shift in dynamics. I've never been a purist, never wanted to be and don't really care to explore the “feelings” of business. (Passion about business? Well that's another story…)

    If you don't like what's going on? Get out of the way….bunch of damn social media hippies. ;)

  • Win.

    This post is full of it.

    Having come up through the ranks (at least in my mind anyway) during the last couple of years it's been interesting to watch the shift in dynamics. I've never been a purist, never wanted to be and don't really care to explore the “feelings” of business. (Passion about business? Well that's another story…)

    If you don't like what's going on? Get out of the way….bunch of damn social media hippies. ;)

  • Win.

    This post is full of it.

    Having come up through the ranks (at least in my mind anyway) during the last couple of years it's been interesting to watch the shift in dynamics. I've never been a purist, never wanted to be and don't really care to explore the “feelings” of business. (Passion about business? Well that's another story…)

    If you don't like what's going on? Get out of the way….bunch of damn social media hippies. ;)

  • Win.

    This post is full of it.

    Having come up through the ranks (at least in my mind anyway) during the last couple of years it's been interesting to watch the shift in dynamics. I've never been a purist, never wanted to be and don't really care to explore the “feelings” of business. (Passion about business? Well that's another story…)

    If you don't like what's going on? Get out of the way….bunch of damn social media hippies. ;)

  • Win.

    This post is full of it.

    Having come up through the ranks (at least in my mind anyway) during the last couple of years it's been interesting to watch the shift in dynamics. I've never been a purist, never wanted to be and don't really care to explore the “feelings” of business. (Passion about business? Well that's another story…)

    If you don't like what's going on? Get out of the way….bunch of damn social media hippies. ;)

  • Win.

    This post is full of it.

    Having come up through the ranks (at least in my mind anyway) during the last couple of years it's been interesting to watch the shift in dynamics. I've never been a purist, never wanted to be and don't really care to explore the “feelings” of business. (Passion about business? Well that's another story…)

    If you don't like what's going on? Get out of the way….bunch of damn social media hippies. ;)

    • If I were drinking coffee, it would have come out my nose. Thanks Stu.

      • heatherwhaling

        I did happen to be drinking a glass of wine when reading this — and nearly spit it on my computer reading Stuart's comment … and your reply. :)

        But, I agree wholeheartedly with Stuart's point. Excellent post, Jason. This is exactly why you're one of my favorites … and why your blog is one of my “must readers.” Keep up the fantastic work. And, thanks for grounding us all us hippie wannabes in reality!!

        Heather (@prtini)

  • Thanks, Carl. The “because I give them a reason to” is the key to this whole post. The engagement, conversation and more has to lead to that reason to effect the bottom line for companies. Appreciate you re-clarifying that with your comment.

  • Thanks, Carl. The “because I give them a reason to” is the key to this whole post. The engagement, conversation and more has to lead to that reason to effect the bottom line for companies. Appreciate you re-clarifying that with your comment.

  • Thanks, Carl. The “because I give them a reason to” is the key to this whole post. The engagement, conversation and more has to lead to that reason to effect the bottom line for companies. Appreciate you re-clarifying that with your comment.

  • Thanks, Carl. The “because I give them a reason to” is the key to this whole post. The engagement, conversation and more has to lead to that reason to effect the bottom line for companies. Appreciate you re-clarifying that with your comment.

  • Thanks, Carl. The “because I give them a reason to” is the key to this whole post. The engagement, conversation and more has to lead to that reason to effect the bottom line for companies. Appreciate you re-clarifying that with your comment.

  • Eeeee! Jason – nice call out. I'm a SoMe gal who learned the hard way that the purist way of life cannot survive. Your blog is accurate but uncomfortable to read. Perhaps it's seeing the error of one's ways right there in black and white. perhaps…

    I delivered a SoMe proposal to a global telco client back in September. My purist self met a very real world client and the process that landed us at the final result was nothing less than frustrating. Not neccessarily due to a lack of ROI but a purist SoMe solution does not consider industry regulations, parameters and brick walls the client faces. An evolution of the proposal was definitely needed – and although it had a happy ending, the lesson was incredibly challening for all involved. I am in full agreement that the purist approach needs to be shelved an more evolved business approach placed up front and center. Although… I think it's worth noting the use of the words “evolve” and the absence of “compromise”. Or is that the flamin' purist in me at work again? HAH!

  • Eeeee! Jason – nice call out. I'm a SoMe gal who learned the hard way that the purist way of life cannot survive. Your blog is accurate but uncomfortable to read. Perhaps it's seeing the error of one's ways right there in black and white. perhaps…

    I delivered a SoMe proposal to a global telco client back in September. My purist self met a very real world client and the process that landed us at the final result was nothing less than frustrating. Not neccessarily due to a lack of ROI but a purist SoMe solution does not consider industry regulations, parameters and brick walls the client faces. An evolution of the proposal was definitely needed – and although it had a happy ending, the lesson was incredibly challening for all involved. I am in full agreement that the purist approach needs to be shelved an more evolved business approach placed up front and center. Although… I think it's worth noting the use of the words “evolve” and the absence of “compromise”. Or is that the flamin' purist in me at work again? HAH!

  • Eeeee! Jason – nice call out. I'm a SoMe gal who learned the hard way that the purist way of life cannot survive. Your blog is accurate but uncomfortable to read. Perhaps it's seeing the error of one's ways right there in black and white. perhaps…

    I delivered a SoMe proposal to a global telco client back in September. My purist self met a very real world client and the process that landed us at the final result was nothing less than frustrating. Not neccessarily due to a lack of ROI but a purist SoMe solution does not consider industry regulations, parameters and brick walls the client faces. An evolution of the proposal was definitely needed – and although it had a happy ending, the lesson was incredibly challening for all involved. I am in full agreement that the purist approach needs to be shelved an more evolved business approach placed up front and center. Although… I think it's worth noting the use of the words “evolve” and the absence of “compromise”. Or is that the flamin' purist in me at work again? HAH!

  • Eeeee! Jason – nice call out. I'm a SoMe gal who learned the hard way that the purist way of life cannot survive. Your blog is accurate but uncomfortable to read. Perhaps it's seeing the error of one's ways right there in black and white. perhaps…

    I delivered a SoMe proposal to a global telco client back in September. My purist self met a very real world client and the process that landed us at the final result was nothing less than frustrating. Not neccessarily due to a lack of ROI but a purist SoMe solution does not consider industry regulations, parameters and brick walls the client faces. An evolution of the proposal was definitely needed – and although it had a happy ending, the lesson was incredibly challening for all involved. I am in full agreement that the purist approach needs to be shelved an more evolved business approach placed up front and center. Although… I think it's worth noting the use of the words “evolve” and the absence of “compromise”. Or is that the flamin' purist in me at work again? HAH!

  • Eeeee! Jason – nice call out. I'm a SoMe gal who learned the hard way that the purist way of life cannot survive. Your blog is accurate but uncomfortable to read. Perhaps it's seeing the error of one's ways right there in black and white. perhaps…

    I delivered a SoMe proposal to a global telco client back in September. My purist self met a very real world client and the process that landed us at the final result was nothing less than frustrating. Not neccessarily due to a lack of ROI but a purist SoMe solution does not consider industry regulations, parameters and brick walls the client faces. An evolution of the proposal was definitely needed – and although it had a happy ending, the lesson was incredibly challening for all involved. I am in full agreement that the purist approach needs to be shelved an more evolved business approach placed up front and center. Although… I think it's worth noting the use of the words “evolve” and the absence of “compromise”. Or is that the flamin' purist in me at work again? HAH!

  • Eeeee! Jason – nice call out. I'm a SoMe gal who learned the hard way that the purist way of life cannot survive. Your blog is accurate but uncomfortable to read. Perhaps it's seeing the error of one's ways right there in black and white. perhaps…

    I delivered a SoMe proposal to a global telco client back in September. My purist self met a very real world client and the process that landed us at the final result was nothing less than frustrating. Not neccessarily due to a lack of ROI but a purist SoMe solution does not consider industry regulations, parameters and brick walls the client faces. An evolution of the proposal was definitely needed – and although it had a happy ending, the lesson was incredibly challening for all involved. I am in full agreement that the purist approach needs to be shelved an more evolved business approach placed up front and center. Although… I think it's worth noting the use of the words “evolve” and the absence of “compromise”. Or is that the flamin' purist in me at work again? HAH!

    • Thank you, so much, Shannon for sharing that. It's not easy to look back and recognize mistakes or missed opportunities. I've done that quite a bit in my professional life. And thanks for showing a real world example of what I'm talking about. I'm not for getting rid of purists. I'm a purist. But I'm one that has learned that with the conversation must come conversion. Or we're just selling fluff. Thanks again. Glad you've made the migration to the practical puritanism of social media. Heh.

  • Agreed, Gemma. Thanks for that. I certainly drew a harder line than matches my normal stance to spark the conversation, but you're right. They are not mutually exclusive and, when done appropriately, can feed one another.

  • Agreed, Gemma. Thanks for that. I certainly drew a harder line than matches my normal stance to spark the conversation, but you're right. They are not mutually exclusive and, when done appropriately, can feed one another.

  • Agreed, Gemma. Thanks for that. I certainly drew a harder line than matches my normal stance to spark the conversation, but you're right. They are not mutually exclusive and, when done appropriately, can feed one another.

  • Agreed, Gemma. Thanks for that. I certainly drew a harder line than matches my normal stance to spark the conversation, but you're right. They are not mutually exclusive and, when done appropriately, can feed one another.

  • Agreed, Gemma. Thanks for that. I certainly drew a harder line than matches my normal stance to spark the conversation, but you're right. They are not mutually exclusive and, when done appropriately, can feed one another.

  • Thanks for the comment!

  • Thanks for the comment!

  • Thanks for the comment!

  • Thanks for the comment!

  • Thanks for the comment!

  • cherylharrison

    Great post, Jason. This is definitely something I struggle with, being a bit of a “purist” myself (read: hippie idealist attempting to be business savvy.)

    “I’m all for your principles. I’m a big fan of The Cluetrain’s “markets are conversations,” notion. But I can promise you a conversation never paid the damn electric bill.”

    ^ love that.

  • cherylharrison

    Great post, Jason. This is definitely something I struggle with, being a bit of a “purist” myself (read: hippie idealist attempting to be business savvy.)

    “I’m all for your principles. I’m a big fan of The Cluetrain’s “markets are conversations,” notion. But I can promise you a conversation never paid the damn electric bill.”

    ^ love that.

  • cherylharrison

    Great post, Jason. This is definitely something I struggle with, being a bit of a “purist” myself (read: hippie idealist attempting to be business savvy.)

    “I’m all for your principles. I’m a big fan of The Cluetrain’s “markets are conversations,” notion. But I can promise you a conversation never paid the damn electric bill.”

    ^ love that.

  • cherylharrison

    Great post, Jason. This is definitely something I struggle with, being a bit of a “purist” myself (read: hippie idealist attempting to be business savvy.)

    “I’m all for your principles. I’m a big fan of The Cluetrain’s “markets are conversations,” notion. But I can promise you a conversation never paid the damn electric bill.”

    ^ love that.

  • cherylharrison

    Great post, Jason. This is definitely something I struggle with, being a bit of a “purist” myself (read: hippie idealist attempting to be business savvy.)

    “I’m all for your principles. I’m a big fan of The Cluetrain’s “markets are conversations,” notion. But I can promise you a conversation never paid the damn electric bill.”

    ^ love that.

  • cherylharrison

    Great post, Jason. This is definitely something I struggle with, being a bit of a “purist” myself (read: hippie idealist attempting to be business savvy.)

    “I’m all for your principles. I’m a big fan of The Cluetrain’s “markets are conversations,” notion. But I can promise you a conversation never paid the damn electric bill.”

    ^ love that.

    • Thanks, Cheryl. And I would argue that anyone on the social side of the aisle is probably a hippie in businessperson's clothing. Nice one.

  • Well said sir (or madame). I love the sales angle to the conversational element. Thank you for that.

  • Well said sir (or madame). I love the sales angle to the conversational element. Thank you for that.

  • Well said sir (or madame). I love the sales angle to the conversational element. Thank you for that.

  • Well said sir (or madame). I love the sales angle to the conversational element. Thank you for that.

  • Well said sir (or madame). I love the sales angle to the conversational element. Thank you for that.

  • Excellent addition, Rubken. Great way to take the two sides and marry them together nicely. Well done.

  • Excellent addition, Rubken. Great way to take the two sides and marry them together nicely. Well done.

  • Excellent addition, Rubken. Great way to take the two sides and marry them together nicely. Well done.

  • Excellent addition, Rubken. Great way to take the two sides and marry them together nicely. Well done.

  • Excellent addition, Rubken. Great way to take the two sides and marry them together nicely. Well done.

  • Dead-on correct. We have to take all the great “soft” aspects of social media and learn to weave in “hard” results. It's not either-or (when it comes to business) – it's both-and.

  • Dead-on correct. We have to take all the great “soft” aspects of social media and learn to weave in “hard” results. It's not either-or (when it comes to business) – it's both-and.

  • Dead-on correct. We have to take all the great “soft” aspects of social media and learn to weave in “hard” results. It's not either-or (when it comes to business) – it's both-and.

  • Dead-on correct. We have to take all the great “soft” aspects of social media and learn to weave in “hard” results. It's not either-or (when it comes to business) – it's both-and.

  • Dead-on correct. We have to take all the great “soft” aspects of social media and learn to weave in “hard” results. It's not either-or (when it comes to business) – it's both-and.

  • Dead-on correct. We have to take all the great “soft” aspects of social media and learn to weave in “hard” results. It's not either-or (when it comes to business) – it's both-and.

    • Agree, agree, Mr. Steve. Thanks for the input.

  • Ah, the young whippersnappers with their pithy responses. Glad to make you feel like you've “won” the conversation.

    As you should know from previous posts or reading through my other comments, I believe in the power of conversations and that they can, indeed drive businesses. Engagement is fundamental in attracting consumers, etc. But for the social media work that we do, as consultants or as social media managers/activators for their companies, if we are selling only the fluff of the conversation and not worrying about driving the bottom line, then our clients/companies need to move on to someone who can.

    So as rested as your case may be, and as dramatic as you proclaimed me unfit to consult small businesses, they are the very ones that will be able to afford my services because I get them more than a Twitter page.

  • Ah, the young whippersnappers with their pithy responses. Glad to make you feel like you've “won” the conversation.

    As you should know from previous posts or reading through my other comments, I believe in the power of conversations and that they can, indeed drive businesses. Engagement is fundamental in attracting consumers, etc. But for the social media work that we do, as consultants or as social media managers/activators for their companies, if we are selling only the fluff of the conversation and not worrying about driving the bottom line, then our clients/companies need to move on to someone who can.

    So as rested as your case may be, and as dramatic as you proclaimed me unfit to consult small businesses, they are the very ones that will be able to afford my services because I get them more than a Twitter page.

  • Ah, the young whippersnappers with their pithy responses. Glad to make you feel like you've “won” the conversation.

    As you should know from previous posts or reading through my other comments, I believe in the power of conversations and that they can, indeed drive businesses. Engagement is fundamental in attracting consumers, etc. But for the social media work that we do, as consultants or as social media managers/activators for their companies, if we are selling only the fluff of the conversation and not worrying about driving the bottom line, then our clients/companies need to move on to someone who can.

    So as rested as your case may be, and as dramatic as you proclaimed me unfit to consult small businesses, they are the very ones that will be able to afford my services because I get them more than a Twitter page.

  • Ah, the young whippersnappers with their pithy responses. Glad to make you feel like you've “won” the conversation.

    As you should know from previous posts or reading through my other comments, I believe in the power of conversations and that they can, indeed drive businesses. Engagement is fundamental in attracting consumers, etc. But for the social media work that we do, as consultants or as social media managers/activators for their companies, if we are selling only the fluff of the conversation and not worrying about driving the bottom line, then our clients/companies need to move on to someone who can.

    So as rested as your case may be, and as dramatic as you proclaimed me unfit to consult small businesses, they are the very ones that will be able to afford my services because I get them more than a Twitter page.

  • Ah, the young whippersnappers with their pithy responses. Glad to make you feel like you've “won” the conversation.

    As you should know from previous posts or reading through my other comments, I believe in the power of conversations and that they can, indeed drive businesses. Engagement is fundamental in attracting consumers, etc. But for the social media work that we do, as consultants or as social media managers/activators for their companies, if we are selling only the fluff of the conversation and not worrying about driving the bottom line, then our clients/companies need to move on to someone who can.

    So as rested as your case may be, and as dramatic as you proclaimed me unfit to consult small businesses, they are the very ones that will be able to afford my services because I get them more than a Twitter page.

  • Dead-on. We have to take all the great “soft” aspects of social media and learn to weave in “hard” results. It's not either-or (when it comes to business) – it's both-and.

  • Dead-on. We have to take all the great “soft” aspects of social media and learn to weave in “hard” results. It's not either-or (when it comes to business) – it's both-and.

  • Dead-on. We have to take all the great “soft” aspects of social media and learn to weave in “hard” results. It's not either-or (when it comes to business) – it's both-and.

  • Dead-on. We have to take all the great “soft” aspects of social media and learn to weave in “hard” results. It's not either-or (when it comes to business) – it's both-and.

  • Dead-on. We have to take all the great “soft” aspects of social media and learn to weave in “hard” results. It's not either-or (when it comes to business) – it's both-and.

  • Dead-on. We have to take all the great “soft” aspects of social media and learn to weave in “hard” results. It's not either-or (when it comes to business) – it's both-and.

  • mikepascucci

    Great post, I could not agree with you more on the “long-term” aspect. The bottom line of most Social Media implementations are to sell more. That is fine, as long as the way that you go about it is well thought out and well strategized. People are not stupid and they will see through any attempt to push product down their throat. Then your name and brand will be dragged through the mud. At the same time, creativity within your strategy can bring very positive results.
    It is a Social Media guy that needs to get the “juices” flowing within a corporation in order to develop an appropriate strategy and launch an effective implementation. The tools are there, just figure out how to use them.
    Mike

  • mikepascucci

    Great post, I could not agree with you more on the “long-term” aspect. The bottom line of most Social Media implementations are to sell more. That is fine, as long as the way that you go about it is well thought out and well strategized. People are not stupid and they will see through any attempt to push product down their throat. Then your name and brand will be dragged through the mud. At the same time, creativity within your strategy can bring very positive results.
    It is a Social Media guy that needs to get the “juices” flowing within a corporation in order to develop an appropriate strategy and launch an effective implementation. The tools are there, just figure out how to use them.
    Mike

  • mikepascucci

    Great post, I could not agree with you more on the “long-term” aspect. The bottom line of most Social Media implementations are to sell more. That is fine, as long as the way that you go about it is well thought out and well strategized. People are not stupid and they will see through any attempt to push product down their throat. Then your name and brand will be dragged through the mud. At the same time, creativity within your strategy can bring very positive results.
    It is a Social Media guy that needs to get the “juices” flowing within a corporation in order to develop an appropriate strategy and launch an effective implementation. The tools are there, just figure out how to use them.
    Mike

  • mikepascucci

    Great post, I could not agree with you more on the “long-term” aspect. The bottom line of most Social Media implementations are to sell more. That is fine, as long as the way that you go about it is well thought out and well strategized. People are not stupid and they will see through any attempt to push product down their throat. Then your name and brand will be dragged through the mud. At the same time, creativity within your strategy can bring very positive results.
    It is a Social Media guy that needs to get the “juices” flowing within a corporation in order to develop an appropriate strategy and launch an effective implementation. The tools are there, just figure out how to use them.
    Mike

  • mikepascucci

    Great post, I could not agree with you more on the “long-term” aspect. The bottom line of most Social Media implementations are to sell more. That is fine, as long as the way that you go about it is well thought out and well strategized. People are not stupid and they will see through any attempt to push product down their throat. Then your name and brand will be dragged through the mud. At the same time, creativity within your strategy can bring very positive results.
    It is a Social Media guy that needs to get the “juices” flowing within a corporation in order to develop an appropriate strategy and launch an effective implementation. The tools are there, just figure out how to use them.
    Mike

  • mikepascucci

    Great post, I could not agree with you more on the “long-term” aspect. The bottom line of most Social Media implementations are to sell more. That is fine, as long as the way that you go about it is well thought out and well strategized. People are not stupid and they will see through any attempt to push product down their throat. Then your name and brand will be dragged through the mud. At the same time, creativity within your strategy can bring very positive results.
    It is a Social Media guy that needs to get the “juices” flowing within a corporation in order to develop an appropriate strategy and launch an effective implementation. The tools are there, just figure out how to use them.
    Mike

    • Excellent Mike. Thanks for the how-to reminder for folks there. Much appreciated.

  • Here's the thing. Sales have always been about price, quality or recommendation. Social Media channels can be used to spread any of those things. TV ads with celebrities telling us those things are not effective anymore because people go on Amazon to check reviews before buying anything.

    Customer retention strategy has begun to shift drastically, and people not engaging online and offline will soon find themselves with a bigger business problem to address (see: the music industry).

    Having said that, I do agree that the warm-and-fuzzy-join-the-conversation-we-are-all-one-spiritual-entity stuff will not sell the C-Suite on tools that can ultimately have a powerful affect on the bottom line. Amber's conversation at the Web2Open last week touched on some of these same issues. We as SM Purists need to take a long hard look at our own strategies for getting buy-in. We KNOW it works, there is starting to be more data to back it up, but crunchy doesn't play well for people whose main concern is the bottom line (and we need those people, believe me).

    Someone way smarter than me said that the only way to sell upper management on anything is to make the case that it will make them money or save them money. I think the relatively low cost of a social media investment (community manager, website) is a much stronger way in. “Take 10% of the budget you were going to spend on that one TV ad and spend it on a years worth of building a community of customers and potential customers online”

  • Here's the thing. Sales have always been about price, quality or recommendation. Social Media channels can be used to spread any of those things. TV ads with celebrities telling us those things are not effective anymore because people go on Amazon to check reviews before buying anything.

    Customer retention strategy has begun to shift drastically, and people not engaging online and offline will soon find themselves with a bigger business problem to address (see: the music industry).

    Having said that, I do agree that the warm-and-fuzzy-join-the-conversation-we-are-all-one-spiritual-entity stuff will not sell the C-Suite on tools that can ultimately have a powerful affect on the bottom line. Amber's conversation at the Web2Open last week touched on some of these same issues. We as SM Purists need to take a long hard look at our own strategies for getting buy-in. We KNOW it works, there is starting to be more data to back it up, but crunchy doesn't play well for people whose main concern is the bottom line (and we need those people, believe me).

    Someone way smarter than me said that the only way to sell upper management on anything is to make the case that it will make them money or save them money. I think the relatively low cost of a social media investment (community manager, website) is a much stronger way in. “Take 10% of the budget you were going to spend on that one TV ad and spend it on a years worth of building a community of customers and potential customers online”

  • Here's the thing. Sales have always been about price, quality or recommendation. Social Media channels can be used to spread any of those things. TV ads with celebrities telling us those things are not effective anymore because people go on Amazon to check reviews before buying anything.

    Customer retention strategy has begun to shift drastically, and people not engaging online and offline will soon find themselves with a bigger business problem to address (see: the music industry).

    Having said that, I do agree that the warm-and-fuzzy-join-the-conversation-we-are-all-one-spiritual-entity stuff will not sell the C-Suite on tools that can ultimately have a powerful affect on the bottom line. Amber's conversation at the Web2Open last week touched on some of these same issues. We as SM Purists need to take a long hard look at our own strategies for getting buy-in. We KNOW it works, there is starting to be more data to back it up, but crunchy doesn't play well for people whose main concern is the bottom line (and we need those people, believe me).

    Someone way smarter than me said that the only way to sell upper management on anything is to make the case that it will make them money or save them money. I think the relatively low cost of a social media investment (community manager, website) is a much stronger way in. “Take 10% of the budget you were going to spend on that one TV ad and spend it on a years worth of building a community of customers and potential customers online”

  • Here's the thing. Sales have always been about price, quality or recommendation. Social Media channels can be used to spread any of those things. TV ads with celebrities telling us those things are not effective anymore because people go on Amazon to check reviews before buying anything.

    Customer retention strategy has begun to shift drastically, and people not engaging online and offline will soon find themselves with a bigger business problem to address (see: the music industry).

    Having said that, I do agree that the warm-and-fuzzy-join-the-conversation-we-are-all-one-spiritual-entity stuff will not sell the C-Suite on tools that can ultimately have a powerful affect on the bottom line. Amber's conversation at the Web2Open last week touched on some of these same issues. We as SM Purists need to take a long hard look at our own strategies for getting buy-in. We KNOW it works, there is starting to be more data to back it up, but crunchy doesn't play well for people whose main concern is the bottom line (and we need those people, believe me).

    Someone way smarter than me said that the only way to sell upper management on anything is to make the case that it will make them money or save them money. I think the relatively low cost of a social media investment (community manager, website) is a much stronger way in. “Take 10% of the budget you were going to spend on that one TV ad and spend it on a years worth of building a community of customers and potential customers online”

  • Here's the thing. Sales have always been about price, quality or recommendation. Social Media channels can be used to spread any of those things. TV ads with celebrities telling us those things are not effective anymore because people go on Amazon to check reviews before buying anything.

    Customer retention strategy has begun to shift drastically, and people not engaging online and offline will soon find themselves with a bigger business problem to address (see: the music industry).

    Having said that, I do agree that the warm-and-fuzzy-join-the-conversation-we-are-all-one-spiritual-entity stuff will not sell the C-Suite on tools that can ultimately have a powerful affect on the bottom line. Amber's conversation at the Web2Open last week touched on some of these same issues. We as SM Purists need to take a long hard look at our own strategies for getting buy-in. We KNOW it works, there is starting to be more data to back it up, but crunchy doesn't play well for people whose main concern is the bottom line (and we need those people, believe me).

    Someone way smarter than me said that the only way to sell upper management on anything is to make the case that it will make them money or save them money. I think the relatively low cost of a social media investment (community manager, website) is a much stronger way in. “Take 10% of the budget you were going to spend on that one TV ad and spend it on a years worth of building a community of customers and potential customers online”

  • Here's the thing. Sales have always been about price, quality or recommendation. Social Media channels can be used to spread any of those things. TV ads with celebrities telling us those things are not effective anymore because people go on Amazon to check reviews before buying anything.

    Customer retention strategy has begun to shift drastically, and people not engaging online and offline will soon find themselves with a bigger business problem to address (see: the music industry).

    Having said that, I do agree that the warm-and-fuzzy-join-the-conversation-we-are-all-one-spiritual-entity stuff will not sell the C-Suite on tools that can ultimately have a powerful affect on the bottom line. Amber's conversation at the Web2Open last week touched on some of these same issues. We as SM Purists need to take a long hard look at our own strategies for getting buy-in. We KNOW it works, there is starting to be more data to back it up, but crunchy doesn't play well for people whose main concern is the bottom line (and we need those people, believe me).

    Someone way smarter than me said that the only way to sell upper management on anything is to make the case that it will make them money or save them money. I think the relatively low cost of a social media investment (community manager, website) is a much stronger way in. “Take 10% of the budget you were going to spend on that one TV ad and spend it on a years worth of building a community of customers and potential customers online”

    • Well said, Jeremy. Thanks for this. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Social media can drive business. My hope was that this post will force us all to remember the realities of that statement. Driving business is the goal. Doesn't mean we have to violate the purities of social media, just that we have to use them smartly. Thanks!

  • Completely agree Tim. Yeah, the post probably comes across that I'm saying it should all be about sales, but that's just a mechanism to drive some interaction around this. I do believe in a balance of both. I do believe conversation can drive business. I just also know that we have to ensure it does or the investment on the client or company side just earns a bunch of chatter. Thanks for chiming in.

  • Completely agree Tim. Yeah, the post probably comes across that I'm saying it should all be about sales, but that's just a mechanism to drive some interaction around this. I do believe in a balance of both. I do believe conversation can drive business. I just also know that we have to ensure it does or the investment on the client or company side just earns a bunch of chatter. Thanks for chiming in.

  • Completely agree Tim. Yeah, the post probably comes across that I'm saying it should all be about sales, but that's just a mechanism to drive some interaction around this. I do believe in a balance of both. I do believe conversation can drive business. I just also know that we have to ensure it does or the investment on the client or company side just earns a bunch of chatter. Thanks for chiming in.

  • Completely agree Tim. Yeah, the post probably comes across that I'm saying it should all be about sales, but that's just a mechanism to drive some interaction around this. I do believe in a balance of both. I do believe conversation can drive business. I just also know that we have to ensure it does or the investment on the client or company side just earns a bunch of chatter. Thanks for chiming in.

  • Completely agree Tim. Yeah, the post probably comes across that I'm saying it should all be about sales, but that's just a mechanism to drive some interaction around this. I do believe in a balance of both. I do believe conversation can drive business. I just also know that we have to ensure it does or the investment on the client or company side just earns a bunch of chatter. Thanks for chiming in.

  • Or can't afford to fix it when they do. Heh. Thanks, Rob.

  • Or can't afford to fix it when they do. Heh. Thanks, Rob.

  • Or can't afford to fix it when they do. Heh. Thanks, Rob.

  • Or can't afford to fix it when they do. Heh. Thanks, Rob.

  • Or can't afford to fix it when they do. Heh. Thanks, Rob.

  • Thanks, Professor. Appreciate the verification I'm not nuts here.

  • Thanks, Professor. Appreciate the verification I'm not nuts here.

  • Thanks, Professor. Appreciate the verification I'm not nuts here.

  • Thanks, Professor. Appreciate the verification I'm not nuts here.

  • Thanks, Professor. Appreciate the verification I'm not nuts here.

  • Funny how more experiences can change your opinions a bit. Or how dramatic license can be taken to stir up a conversation. Now you have ask yourself which is the case. Heh.

  • Funny how more experiences can change your opinions a bit. Or how dramatic license can be taken to stir up a conversation. Now you have ask yourself which is the case. Heh.

  • Funny how more experiences can change your opinions a bit. Or how dramatic license can be taken to stir up a conversation. Now you have ask yourself which is the case. Heh.

  • Funny how more experiences can change your opinions a bit. Or how dramatic license can be taken to stir up a conversation. Now you have ask yourself which is the case. Heh.

  • Funny how more experiences can change your opinions a bit. Or how dramatic license can be taken to stir up a conversation. Now you have ask yourself which is the case. Heh.

  • andre70

    I agree that for SM to succeed for business it needs to drive traffic and/or sales. However, I feel that the real power of social media is not its commercial benefits. Social media gives us the opportunity to explore new ideas and solutions together. A chance to make real positive changes in our society.

    My fear is that if it is commercialized, the actual social benefits will be lost or obscured. SM is about conversation. Why do we have to exploit every communications platform for commercial/corporate benefit?

    The real question is will social media allow, and coexist with, heavy commercial intrusions or will it simply transform itself to purge the unwanted and move ahead of wave?

  • andre70

    I agree that for SM to succeed for business it needs to drive traffic and/or sales. However, I feel that the real power of social media is not its commercial benefits. Social media gives us the opportunity to explore new ideas and solutions together. A chance to make real positive changes in our society.

    My fear is that if it is commercialized, the actual social benefits will be lost or obscured. SM is about conversation. Why do we have to exploit every communications platform for commercial/corporate benefit?

    The real question is will social media allow, and coexist with, heavy commercial intrusions or will it simply transform itself to purge the unwanted and move ahead of wave?

  • andre70

    I agree that for SM to succeed for business it needs to drive traffic and/or sales. However, I feel that the real power of social media is not its commercial benefits. Social media gives us the opportunity to explore new ideas and solutions together. A chance to make real positive changes in our society.

    My fear is that if it is commercialized, the actual social benefits will be lost or obscured. SM is about conversation. Why do we have to exploit every communications platform for commercial/corporate benefit?

    The real question is will social media allow, and coexist with, heavy commercial intrusions or will it simply transform itself to purge the unwanted and move ahead of wave?

  • andre70

    I agree that for SM to succeed for business it needs to drive traffic and/or sales. However, I feel that the real power of social media is not its commercial benefits. Social media gives us the opportunity to explore new ideas and solutions together. A chance to make real positive changes in our society.

    My fear is that if it is commercialized, the actual social benefits will be lost or obscured. SM is about conversation. Why do we have to exploit every communications platform for commercial/corporate benefit?

    The real question is will social media allow, and coexist with, heavy commercial intrusions or will it simply transform itself to purge the unwanted and move ahead of wave?

  • andre70

    I agree that for SM to succeed for business it needs to drive traffic and/or sales. However, I feel that the real power of social media is not its commercial benefits. Social media gives us the opportunity to explore new ideas and solutions together. A chance to make real positive changes in our society.

    My fear is that if it is commercialized, the actual social benefits will be lost or obscured. SM is about conversation. Why do we have to exploit every communications platform for commercial/corporate benefit?